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Alternate Force Point Rules
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, I rechecked my rulebook. I was wrong. As far as 2E rules go, a FP must be declared at the start of a turn.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
It is possible that in the instance crmcneill describes Luke 'doubled up' and spent a Force Point and then called on the Dark Side. I didn't even know this was a possibility until garhkal mentioned it in another thread but it seems that it is and that basically quadruples your dicepool.

That could easily account for Luke outclassing Vader for a single round.


Very nice! I didn't know it was a possibility either, but it is definitely a plausible explanation under the RAW.

EDIT: Plus it would fit well with the fickle nature of the Dark Side to say that, if one character in a duel has called on the Dark Side (especially one like a PC that has not yet fallen to darkness), the other character may not do so.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Hey guys, I rechecked my rulebook. I was wrong. As far as 2E rules go, a FP must be declared at the start of a turn.


Can you give the reference on that? I only checked my 2R&E book and couldn't find anything.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
Hey guys, I rechecked my rulebook. I was wrong. As far as 2E rules go, a FP must be declared at the start of a turn.


Can you give the reference on that? I only checked my 2R&E book and couldn't find anything.


2E Rulebook, Page 54.
West End Games wrote:
A character must declare that they are using Force Points when they declare all other actions

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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Plus it would fit well with the fickle nature of the Dark Side to say that, if one character in a duel has called on the Dark Side (especially one like a PC that has not yet fallen to darkness), the other character may not do so.


Yes I was thinking that but couldn't find the rule about how calling on the Dark Side works so I thought I'd leave it to someone with a rulebook closer to hand Smile
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Hey guys, I rechecked my rulebook. I was wrong. As far as 2E rules go, a FP must be declared at the start of a turn.
Great and I just found a comfortable seat. Wink
atgxtg wrote:
Bren wrote:
For the two roll attack & parry system (like the RAW) we could even give the defender an additional advantage by allowing him to know if the attacker has declared a FP on the attack, before the defender makes his decision on FP use. That would allow a character who thought he was inferior in number of FPs to husband those points for defense. This might help de-escalate the nuclear option for LS duels, since a character would not be forced to declare a FP use on defense until after knowing if his opponent is attacking with a FP. It would also possibly mitigate the fact that to get a good attack and parry characters in this system will have to spend 2 FPs.

Probably not. What I see happening is the attacker declaring two attacks and with the second one coming off after the defender has spent his FP (or not). That is why I think declaring after the rollis vitall for avoiding the nuke escalation. By declaring second, the defender can still burn an FP to parry the second attack, should it be necessary, raising his parry total.
In the RAW you don't ever declare two attacks. You declare two actions. After all first actions are resolved, you then decide what your second action will be.

I am thinking that 1 FP applied to lightsaber attack (or any attack) would double the attack skill for all subsequent attack rolls that round. Similarly, 1 FP applied to a lightsaber parry would double all subsequent parry rolls that round.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
crmcneill wrote:
Plus it would fit well with the fickle nature of the Dark Side to say that, if one character in a duel has called on the Dark Side (especially one like a PC that has not yet fallen to darkness), the other character may not do so.


Yes I was thinking that but couldn't find the rule about how calling on the Dark Side works so I thought I'd leave it to someone with a rulebook closer to hand :)


I can't find a specific reference, but it would make sense based on the reading in the Dark Side section. The 2R&E book specifies that the Dark Side is easy to use at first but requires more and more as you become more and more enmeshed in it.

The example that came to my mind was that of a drug dealer getting someone hooked with a free "introductory offer." It creates a craving and (most likely) a repeat customer, and the drugs aren't free the next time.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me that sounds like the more Dark Side Points you have the harder it should be to call on the Dark Side so someone like Luke would find it easy and Vader would find it difficult to do.

Hmmm that does seem to support what we see in the film pretty well.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
Hey guys, I rechecked my rulebook. I was wrong. As far as 2E rules go, a FP must be declared at the start of a turn.
Great and I just found a comfortable seat. Wink

Oh. Sorry. Here you go.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
To me that sounds like the more Dark Side Points you have the harder it should be to call on the Dark Side so someone like Luke would find it easy and Vader would find it difficult to do.

Hmmm that does seem to support what we see in the film pretty well.


Indeed. I suppose someone could come up with a rule to represent the difficulty, or it could just be a GM call, saying something like "Your rage is overpowering as you lash out at the Dark Jedi. You can almost hear a voice whispering to you, saying 'He is weak and afraid! Only the strong are worthy. The darkness has abandoned him. Strike him down now, before it is too late!"

And then in game terms, he just doesn't let the NPC Dark Jedi spend a DSP to counter the Jedi's double down of a FP/DSP combo.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Esoomian wrote:
It is possible that in the instance crmcneill describes Luke 'doubled up' and spent a Force Point and then called on the Dark Side. I didn't even know this was a possibility until garhkal mentioned it in another thread but it seems that it is and that basically quadruples your dicepool.

That could easily account for Luke outclassing Vader for a single round.


Very nice! I didn't know it was a possibility either, but it is definitely a plausible explanation under the RAW.

EDIT: Plus it would fit well with the fickle nature of the Dark Side to say that, if one character in a duel has called on the Dark Side (especially one like a PC that has not yet fallen to darkness), the other character may not do so.


I seem to have to remind people of that a lot of times.. in that it states under the "calling on the dark side" aspect, that it gives you a FP to spend EVEN if you have already spent on in that round.. hence the quadding up.

Quote:
Indeed. I suppose someone could come up with a rule to represent the difficulty, or it could just be a GM call, saying something like "Your rage is overpowering as you lash out at the Dark Jedi. You can almost hear a voice whispering to you, saying 'He is weak and afraid! Only the strong are worthy. The darkness has abandoned him. Strike him down now, before it is too late!"

And then in game terms, he just doesn't let the NPC Dark Jedi spend a DSP to counter the Jedi's double down of a FP/DSP combo.


I did that with one of the first ever jedi/sith fights i ran, as the pc was earning his 4th DSP of the session.... and as soon as he cut the guy down, i had him make his DSP avoidance roll... got a 2.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am contemplating switching to modified rule for FPs. This will also slightly effect the usage of CPs.

Force Points
A force point (FP) affects one skill or attribute for one round. It can be declared at any time prior to rolling the dice. One FP only affects either attack or defense rolls, not both. So a single force point spent to increase the lightsaber skill can only increase either lightsaber attack or lightsaber parry, but not both. One FP affects all similar uses of a specific skill for that round, so if a FP is used to affect lightsaber attack, it affects all lightsaber attacks for that round. More than one FP can be used in a round, for example a character with at least two force points could use one FP for attack and another FP for parry.

Character Points
After the dice are rolled, but before the result is determined. A character point (CP) may be spent to increase any skill or attribute roll. The only exception is that if a FP has been used for that skill or attribute roll, then a CP may not be used on that same skill or attribute use in that same round. However CPs may be used for any other skill or attribute rolls in that same round.

Where I Need Help
However, I am encountering some difficulty in figuring out how to treat using FP to affect Force Powers.
(1) I'm not sure how to elegantly manage a power like LS Combat which effects lightsaber attack and parry as well as LS damage in line with use of a FP only affecting attack or parry. In other words how do I reconcile the power with the FP usage above?

(2) On the one hand, I am concerned that the FP usage becomes prohibitively costly for Jedi, for example: if LS combat takes 1 FP to double Control and a 2nd FP to double Sense and even then it only counts for offense, taking another 2 FPs to double both for defense. On the other hand, if I follow crmcneil's suggestion to allow 1 FP to affect a Force Power regardless of how many skills it uses, that may be too powerful. What is the best way to treat multi-skill powers and how best to cost the F usage?

I'm hoping one of you folks can formulate a solution that I am just not seeing.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
On the other hand, if I follow crmcneil's suggestion to allow 1 FP to affect a Force Power regardless of how many skills it uses, that may be too powerful. What is the best way to treat multi-skill powers and how best to cost the F usage?



I thought I suggested that a Force User could spend multiple FPs in a round, but only on a Force Power that required multiple skill rolls, and that multiple FPs used in a round were subject to the same rules of losing/gaining back as a single FP.

I use a Dueling Blades variant that only requires one Lightsaber roll covering both attack and defense, so that isn't such an issue for me. I also tend to discard MAPs in the case of Force skills being used to enhance non-Force skills, but that's just my preference...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bren"]
]In the RAW you don't ever declare two attacks. You declare two actions. After all first actions are resolved, you then decide what your second action will be.[/quoute]

Generally, correct. Thereis ONE instance in the RAWwhere you must declare attacks, but we can ignore it.

But, my point is that by the RAW, charactersCAN spend CPs after they make the rolls. That makes Cps very powerful, since a character can use a Cp to bump up a close roll.

Quote:

I am thinking that 1 FP applied to lightsaber attack (or any attack) would double the attack skill for all subsequent attack rolls that round. Similarly, 1 FP applied to a lightsaber parry would double all subsequent parry rolls that round.


That puts you right back to the RAW. And brings back the nuke result.

And if Dark Side characters can quad up, I think it is game over. The Darksiders will win if unless the Jedi have an overwhelming advantage. A quadded up Dooku can probably b****-slap Yoda!

IMO darksider's being able to quad up makes the dark side stronger.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Bren wrote:

I am thinking that 1 FP applied to lightsaber attack (or any attack) would double the attack skill for all subsequent attack rolls that round. Similarly, 1 FP applied to a lightsaber parry would double all subsequent parry rolls that round.

That puts you right back to the RAW. And brings back the nuke result.
I think that using the Attack Results table there is a way around that. But it will require a longer posting on a different thread. For now, let's pretend the nuclear scenario is at least partly mitigated. The question is then how to combine a more limited, super CP effect of FPs with the Force Powers.
Quote:
And if Dark Side characters can quad up, I think it is game over. The Darksiders will win if unless the Jedi have an overwhelming advantage. A quadded up Dooku can probably b****-slap Yoda!
I think quadding up is a misinterpretation of the rule which allows a 'free' FP to a character who calls on the Dark Side. Absent a clear indication that one is allowed to quadruple skills and attributes, I continue in my belief that this is not allowed. So quadding is for me a moot point. And if something over doubling is allowed, why is it not tripling instead of quadrupling? Question

There is one advantage to 'unturned' characters with DSPs since they get to add +1D to their force skills for every DSP. But this goes away for characters like Dooku, Vader, and Palpatine who have turned and it is not as powerful as quadrupling.
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