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cynanbloodbane
Commander
Joined: 05 Dec 2014
Posts: 410
Location: Cleveland, Go Tribe!
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 Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Superlaser on the Death Star is still a gauge of the top end of planetary shields.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16403
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Someone once made the point to me that, if it ever reaches the point in a game that you are actually rolling Death Star Scale damage against a planet, your game is well past the point of absurdity. At the Death Star Scale level, you are basically in dice avalanche territory, and would be better off simply narrating the result. If you have 30 or 40 dice available they can be dropped en masse behind a GM screen, and you can pretend to total them up momentarily before simply declaring the result.
The stats for the actual use of planetary shields are inconsistent, but looking at what is available, there is no mention of whether or not the shield dice are stacked with the planet's soak dice, or if the dice counts as cover. If it is the former, then it is yet another WEG screw-up. If it is the latter, then the Death Star would roll its damage against just the shield dice, like the ion cannon example I used above.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14354
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Jedi Skyler wrote: | | It could also possibly be because, from orbit, it seems to be very difficult, if not impossible, to detect the actual generators. On Hoth, it was the ground forces that detected and eventually destroyed the shield generator. |
That raises an interesting question about shields in general. Do they also block sensors? |
Normally no. Maybe planetary do though cause of how much energy is being pushed out by the shields..
| crmcneill wrote: | Someone once made the point to me that, if it ever reaches the point in a game that you are actually rolling Death Star Scale damage against a planet, your game is well past the point of absurdity. At the Death Star Scale level, you are basically in dice avalanche territory, and would be better off simply narrating the result. If you have 30 or 40 dice available they can be dropped en masse behind a GM screen, and you can pretend to total them up momentarily before simply declaring the result.
The stats for the actual use of planetary shields are inconsistent, but looking at what is available, there is no mention of whether or not the shield dice are stacked with the planet's soak dice, or if the dice counts as cover. If it is the former, then it is yet another WEG screw-up. If it is the latter, then the Death Star would roll its damage against just the shield dice, like the ion cannon example I used above. |
And technically even capital scale damage to an area characters are in is still overkill, cause though they can by the rules dodge the shot itself, there is no logical way they should dodge the blast radius of the beam.
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Jedi Skyler wrote: | | It could also possibly be because, from orbit, it seems to be very difficult, if not impossible, to detect the actual generators. On Hoth, it was the ground forces that detected and eventually destroyed the shield generator. |
That raises an interesting question about shields in general. Do they also block sensors? |
Normally no. Maybe planetary do though cause of how much energy is being pushed out by the shields..
| crmcneill wrote: | Someone once made the point to me that, if it ever reaches the point in a game that you are actually rolling Death Star Scale damage against a planet, your game is well past the point of absurdity. At the Death Star Scale level, you are basically in dice avalanche territory, and would be better off simply narrating the result. If you have 30 or 40 dice available they can be dropped en masse behind a GM screen, and you can pretend to total them up momentarily before simply declaring the result.
The stats for the actual use of planetary shields are inconsistent, but looking at what is available, there is no mention of whether or not the shield dice are stacked with the planet's soak dice, or if the dice counts as cover. If it is the former, then it is yet another WEG screw-up. If it is the latter, then the Death Star would roll its damage against just the shield dice, like the ion cannon example I used above. |
And technically even capital scale damage to an area characters are in is still overkill, cause though they can by the rules dodge the shot itself, there is no logical way they should dodge the blast radius of the beam. |
Or the shrapnel of what ever the beam hit.
In a game I was in my char managed to tick off a ship captain and he opened up with starship scale blaster. I blew a force point to dodge. I did but the stuff i was sitting on exploded and took me out the char needed to go So i went with a bang. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Exactly. If you do something stupid enough to get the area you are standing in targeted by a capital ship, there shouldn't even be a need for a dodge. If the beam hits the target spot, it should be "SPLAT".
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Venerath
Ensign
Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:07 am Post subject: |
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It's not about the need to dodge at that point though, is it? Burning the force point isn't about not dying, its about dying with style. Dying with force points unspent requires a special kind of karma for your reincarnation....one that requires you to play Ewok Bounty Hunters or Gamorrean Senatorials for your next character.
As for the shields and ion cannons:
I swear I read examples of planetary shields having "windows" that could be opened without the whole shield having to come down to allow ships to pass through them....one of the Timothy Zahn books maybe? I can see coordinating the "windows" with the planet side ion cannon that was shooting through the shield (on Hoth for example).
The death star is protected with a massive shield being projected from Endor, and the rebels make no attempt to ionize the shield from orbit with a capital ship when the commando's fail to bring it down as quickly.
As far as ray shielding is concerned I don't have to many issues with it still getting to roll (as part of the hull code) against ion cannons. I actually like the idea that the hull code is more than just the armor plating of the ship, it is more of an overall measure of their integrity; including the ray shielding, plating, redundant systems, ability to maintain pressure under stress and resistant environmental controls (protecting against ion storms, solar flares, nebular interference, gravitational energies and all that jazz). Many of these systems that contribute to the ships "hull code" require energy to run. The hull codes ability to resist ion cannons may have more to do with the systems required to protect the ship from environmental issues of spaceflight than micro particle impacts and hull plates.
Lasers in star wars are very....physical, they are not beams of light. They explode on impact (splatter on shields) have superheated gas, plasma, and other properties. As such I don't have issues with a shield interacting with "lasers, blasters, turbo lasers, concussion missiles and proton torpedoes" . Ion cannons (and tractor beams) don't use "physical missiles" and as such only roll against the hull code.
I think a fair question to ask is: If shields stop lasers (etc) from coming in, why don't they stop lasers and torpedoes coming from the ship they are protecting? It would seem that perhaps there are "windows" in the shields that are opened to allow fire emanating from the ship to pass through unopposed.
In my mind it also means that they should be a way to generate an "energy shield" that protects against ion cannons and tractor beams but not against blasters, lasers, and explosive projectiles. We have just such a system as a house rule. (You can't run both systems at the same time, gotta pick which shields to have up and running).
Hmm....now I have to reread my whole post and try to figure out if I stayed on topic.....ah, yeah, spaceside ion cannons shooting through a planetary shield. I would lean towards the whole "can't find the generator" side of things. A planet with shields like that would likely have sensors that could be used to block/jam/interfere the spaceside ship sensors to keep them from finding and targeting the shield generators. As was mentioned above, at Hoth the walkers find them from the ground, targeting them and destroying them from "inside" the planetary shield.
Not sure the shield on Hoth really "covered" the whole planet or just Echo base, since the shields didn't stop the imperials from landing troops via drop ships and sending them in over land.
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Thx1138
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 182
Location: Where ever the Force takes me
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| If we look at the Droideka, sources say that their shields are polarized so their weapons can fire through but others can't get in. I think that if the weapon is firing from within the shield, it should be able to go through it. That is of course if they are physically connected to each other and using the same generator to power them like on a ship or a droid. Which could also mean that each power generator in star wars has a subtle difference in it's systems to allow for this. And on the topic of the shield of the death star, Shields require a huge amount of power, and since most of the power on the original Death star would be going to its main super laser, it easy to infer that the empire would have to use an inferior shield in order to save on power to strengthen its weapon systems. Also it can also be assumed that the sheer size of the Death star would discourage any attack from any fleet that could attack them. Now it is possible that the Second Death Star could have had a stronger shield since I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the second one had three reactors with two hooked up to the super laser and one for other systems. |
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cynanbloodbane
Commander
Joined: 05 Dec 2014
Posts: 410
Location: Cleveland, Go Tribe!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Thx1138 wrote: | | If we look at the Droideka, sources say that their shields are polarized so their weapons can fire through but others can't get in. I think that if the weapon is firing from within the shield, it should be able to go through it. That is of course if they are physically connected to each other and using the same generator to power them like on a ship or a droid. Which could also mean that each power generator in star wars has a subtle difference in it's systems to allow for this. And on the topic of the shield of the death star, Shields require a huge amount of power, and since most of the power on the original Death star would be going to its main super laser, it easy to infer that the empire would have to use an inferior shield in order to save on power to strengthen its weapon systems. Also it can also be assumed that the sheer size of the Death star would discourage any attack from any fleet that could attack them. Now it is possible that the Second Death Star could have had a stronger shield since I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the second one had three reactors with two hooked up to the super laser and one for other systems. |
I always assumed that shields and weapons on starships operated on a linked system, allowing the weapons to fire through.
As for the Death Star, the Eco Base Shield was strong enough to repel any bombardment, with a main power generator small enough to transported in by an under funded rebel alliance. Even if it was a 100km dome as some have suggested, the Death Star was only 120km. Logically the DS had more than enough empty space to accommodate several such shields & generators, but its Star Wars so I can shrug that off and say OK, the Empire went lowest bidder and just installed a bunch of SD shield generators all over the surface.
The game mechanic that is relevant is that the Superlaser inflicts 28D (cap scale) at maximum fire power, enough to blow up a planet. I do maintain that the Death Star's superlaser could destroy said planet even if a planetary shield were in use. Thus we have a top end for any planetary shield.
Finally my initial line of inquiry was leading to a potential early Empire super weapon for my campaign. Think of it as a Shield Annihilator, based on the CIS subjugator-class, it was to be a stopgap fear weapon until the DS went on line. Shield Annihilator (working title) jumps in fires a massive Ion blast at a planet, thus Ionizing all tech in a 10 SU area... (not sure how big a SU is in km now that I say it)... not only will the planetary shield go down, but all power and weapons as well. The planet is now primed for invasion.
Bonus, by making it spherical, the empire now has a test bed for all manner of DS systems. At the moment I am thinking a sphere 3-10km in diameter.
with a primary Ion weapon inflicting as much as 16D cap scale or 4D Death Star scale. Would that be enough to do what I am thinking or do I need to go bigger?
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"Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children." The Brain |
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Thx1138
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 182
Location: Where ever the Force takes me
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Well with the empire, bigger is better, just make sure their isn't a small exhaust port that can be hit by a one man fighter. And as I had said about the mechanics of the original death star, if your main weapon is tied directly to the main reactor like on the original death star, there is an upper limit of power that can be used on other systems. This also the reason that the death star also has a class 4 hyper drive since it would require much more power to power it. the fact is that the death star uses most of its power output on its super laser limits the available power for a powerful shield generator. But the size of it also may have meant that if they were to use a shield on it, it would have to be a unique construct since if anything, a planetary shield would need extensive modifications in order to work as a shield for the death star. for the argument that they could have added numerous planetary shields and generators inside it is not a sound design, it would increase the required amounts of tech personal as well as require numerous fuel connections to be added to funnel fuel to those generators. It would also have a much smaller limit to the shield power output than if a shield was tied directly to the main reactor of the death star itself. It can be assumed that if a death stars shield is tied to the main reactor, it could possible survive a blast from another death star since the same power output that goes into its super laser could block the same amount of energy.
On the topic of your weapon design, it is a very interesting idea but I feel that the empire wouldn't be able to finance said project with the revamping of the imperial fleet along with the building of the Death star and other projects not to mention taking down remnants of the CIS. I could see that after the deaths stars destruction that they could try to convert a torpedo sphere into one of your weapon idea. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16403
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Exactly. If you do something stupid enough to get the area you are standing in targeted by a capital ship, there shouldn't even be a need for a dodge. If the beam hits the target spot, it should be "SPLAT". |
Agreed. We've discussed this before but never got around to actually making a usable rule for it. I've considered a variation on the barrage fire idea, where the secondary blast effects of being near the impact of higher scale weaponry created a terrain hazard. Again, unfortunately, I can't come up with a version that I like.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Even making it just a 'terrain hazard though' still allows someone with a great running (or dex roll) to escape all or most of the damage.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16403
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Even making it just a 'terrain hazard though' still allows someone with a great running (or dex roll) to escape all or most of the damage. |
That depends how high the difficulty is set.
You raised the same objection when we discussed barrage rules, and I'll say the same thing I said there. Yes, such a system does favor characters with higher skill levels, but so does cinematic storytelling. Heroes are more likely to survive events that would certainly kill lesser beings. Is it fair or realistic? No. But then, Star Wars isn't exactly a realistic universe.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Even making it just a 'terrain hazard though' still allows someone with a great running (or dex roll) to escape all or most of the damage. |
That depends how high the difficulty is set.
You raised the same objection when we discussed barrage rules, and I'll say the same thing I said there. Yes, such a system does favor characters with higher skill levels, but so does cinematic storytelling. Heroes are more likely to survive events that would certainly kill lesser beings. Is it fair or realistic? No. But then, Star Wars isn't exactly a realistic universe. |
Not realistic but dramatic. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:04 am Post subject: |
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Is it really 'dramatic/cinematic' though that something that is killing everything else in say a 20ft radius isn't doing the same thing to a PC? Such as say a turbolaser blast blowing up the area around them?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16403
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Is it really 'dramatic/cinematic' though that something that is killing everything else in say a 20ft radius isn't doing the same thing to a PC? Such as say a turbolaser blast blowing up the area around them? |
That's why we roll the dice. A character has a better chance of avoiding damage, not a guarantee.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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