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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | ...even a private wont be totally clueless if he finds himself the highest ranking member of a squad. |
Is there a clear, linear hierarchy in the squad where every private knows that A > B > C > D > E > F so D, E, and F know that if A, B, and C are out of action D is in charge? |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | ...So at no time am i commanding more than 4 people. BUT the net effect is that i command 46. |
Yes, I understand the chain of command concept and as I said it is a good house rule or fix for the WEG command skill. But the chain of command you list is the ideal TOE. What happens in a shooting war after the casualties start to mount? Soon links in the chain go missing and there is little or no command redundancy to allow for missing NCOs.
The limitation to being able to command 4-8 people also seems contrary to real world examples of officers directly commanding larger formations of troops. |
As Naaman says, we train to fill the shoes of the person above us, if not the person above him as well..
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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CPL>SPC>PFC>PV2>PVT.
For all intents and purposes, all ranks below CPL are considered "lower enlisted," and have no military authority, though a specialist is a seasoned soldier who has begun to train to be a sergeant. A corporal has an identical function to a sergeant, but is basically a specialist awaiting the red tape before promotion to sergeant. All privates and specialists have the same job description, with graduated levels of experience/knowledge/proficiency.
Sometimes, in the abaence of competent leadership, a lower ranking person will take charge with a level of graciousness that does not step on the toes of, or offend the higher ranking person present. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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So there is possibly some ambiguity about hierarchy at some point in the lower enlisted ranks. The Imperial Army seemed to try to get around that issue by having a brevet list with an explicit hierarchy for the eight lower enlisted men in a squad from the "one-man" down to the "eight-man" denoting the order in which authority devolved to them if the squad's more senior soldiers were killed.
Mentioned here. |
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Orion
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Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | So there is possibly some ambiguity about hierarchy at some point in the lower enlisted ranks. The Imperial Army seemed to try to get around that issue by having a brevet list with an explicit hierarchy for the eight lower enlisted men in a squad from the "one-man" down to the "eight-man" denoting the order in which authority devolved to them if the squad's more senior soldiers were killed.
Mentioned here. |
While I'm not military, I do have close friends that are/were, and my understanding is no there is no ambiguity. If two people are the same rank, whichever has been in that rank the longest in the "higher rank".
I believe what Naaman was talking about is sometimes the 'person in charge' isn't very good at being in charge, so someone of lower rank will fill the gap, but the person filling in the gap, as it were, would still be under the command of the person that is supposed to be in charge and as such the would still be accorded the respect due them because of that.
In other words command didn't actually transfer, the commander is letting someone that can do this job better run things for them. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Orion, yes, that is what I was getting at. I have been on both sides of that fence. Sometimes, when my "boss" had no clue, I jumped in for him and ran the show under the guise of delegated authority. Also, I have been in certain situations with personnel under my authority who were subject matter experts or else just more familiar with a particular aspect of the job than I, so I let them do their thing, learning what I can, and paying them their proper dues. Generally, when someone under me out performs me, I make a written record of their excellent performance and put it in their file, which will help them get promoted/decorated etc..
If a combat element is reduced to a bunch of privates, however, it's unlikely that cohesion will ACTUALLY survive, unless one of those privates is particularly charismatic or well-respected by his peers already, or is otherwise perceived as adequately competent to be worthy of following. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | | If two people are the same rank, whichever has been in that rank the longest in the "higher rank". |
I was under the impression that time in grade was mostly used for officers figuring out who was most senior and here we were looking at non-officers (and mostly soldiers who aren't even noncoms).
| Naaman wrote: | | If a combat element is reduced to a bunch of privates, however, it's unlikely that cohesion will ACTUALLY survive, unless one of those privates is particularly charismatic or well-respected by his peers already, or is otherwise perceived as adequately competent to be worthy of following. |
Mostly I was referring to this situation. Which is about what I would expect to have happen. In some groups a leader may emerge but in others cohesion fails.
In Star Wars, I would expect that Stormtroopers would have much better unit cohesion than would the regular army. I would expect the Imperial Army to have a more explicit chain of command than the Rebels. I would expect the Rebels to have a higher liklihood of having throwing up a spontaneous leader than would any Imperials.
It reminds me of some miniatures game from long ago where morale was rolled on a D6. 6 would be inspired or fanatical morale and 1 would be shaken morale. I could see Rebels rolling D6 and some Imperial units (maybe stormtroopers) rolling a modified D6 where 1 counts as 2 and 6 counts as 5. So they are never (or rarely) shaken, but they are never (or rarely) inspired. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Orion wrote: | | If two people are the same rank, whichever has been in that rank the longest in the "higher rank". |
I was under the impression that time in grade was mostly used for officers figuring out who was most senior and here we were looking at non-officers (and mostly soldiers who aren't even noncoms). |
Nope it applies to all ranks.. not just Os..
Heck last place i was at, i was pipped by just 2 months for time in rate as an E6 for the LPO position of our shop.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Nope it applies to all ranks.. not just Os..
Heck last place i was at, i was pipped by just 2 months for time in rate as an E6 for the LPO position of our shop. |
An E6 is a PFOC or noncommissioned officer. Do E1-E3 actually use time in rank for figuring out who tells who to stir the soup or what not? I was assuming this would be done less by a formal hierarchy and more by force of personality of the individuals. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren, according to military law, Garhkal is telling it right. The higjer ranking person has the legal authority to give orders IF they are placed in charge, or if circumstances default them into command. But you are right: the most charismatic/convincing/well-liked/trusted etc person will wind up leading the group... Being, in effect, the alpha. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Bren, according to military law, Garhkal is telling it right. The higjer ranking person has the legal authority to give orders IF they are placed in charge, or if circumstances default them into command. But you are right: the most charismatic/convincing/well-liked/trusted etc person will wind up leading the group... Being, in effect, the alpha. |
I was assuming that E1-E3 maybe cared a bit less about such things then officers or NCOs, but it's good to hear what people who have been their experienced. Not that the US military is a model for any force in Star Wars, but I suspect there are some fairly universal truths in any military. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Bren, according to military law, Garhkal is telling it right. The higjer ranking person has the legal authority to give orders IF they are placed in charge, or if circumstances default them into command. But you are right: the most charismatic/convincing/well-liked/trusted etc person will wind up leading the group... Being, in effect, the alpha. |
Thanks for the back up namman. BUT you forgot one key part. IF someone is LOWER rank than you but is still placed in a position of authority over you, say class leader, or student leader, even with you being of higher rank, you are lower on the chain of command..
This is usually done with newly ranked people, or those new to a command...
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