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atgxtg
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 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="garhkal"]
Well, look at the rule book.. when you call on the dark side and are successful, it gives you a force point which must be spent immediately, even if you already spent one for the round... so 2x2 is x4..
But does the rulebook specifically state that the second point doubles skills again or just that it must be spent. I think the intention was that someone calling on the dark side couldn't "bank" the FP. And there are some Force Powers that require the expenditure of a FP, like Reduce Injury, so maybe the extra FP was meant to be used for something like that.
If quadding up was the intention, then the Dark Side really is stronger. Even Yoda is going to be bantha fodder if a Sith can quad up.
The problem is that not all FPs are equal. The higher the die code the more powerful the effect of an FP. With multiple D6s doubling turns a close contest into a near certainty, and quadding up makes any Dark Sider skilled enough to challenge the PCs virtually unbeatable.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding Doubling and MAPs.
I think there was an example in the first edition rules that did the doubling first, and I think that is the easiest and best way to do it. Especially when considering reaction skills and having to refiqure MAPs retroactively.
But the Concentration example in 2R&E, flawed as it is (by the RAW there is no reason for Luke to switch off his targeting computer and give up his 2D fire control) seems to apply the MAPs first.
But, if we double Luke's skill (6D) to 12D first add 2D fire control, then add 4D for Concentration, we'd also get 18D assuming that Concentration doesn't apply a MAP, And there is precedent for a "free" action, the half move. That would actually work out right, and make some sense. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: |
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[quote="atgxtg"] | garhkal wrote: |
Well, look at the rule book.. when you call on the dark side and are successful, it gives you a force point which must be spent immediately, even if you already spent one for the round... so 2x2 is x4..
But does the rulebook specifically state that the second point doubles skills again or just that it must be spent. I think the intention was that someone calling on the dark side couldn't "bank" the FP. And there are some Force Powers that require the expenditure of a FP, like Reduce Injury, so maybe the extra FP was meant to be used for something like that.
If quadding up was the intention, then the Dark Side really is stronger. Even Yoda is going to be bantha fodder if a Sith can quad up.
The problem is that not all FPs are equal. The higher the die code the more powerful the effect of an FP. With multiple D6s doubling turns a close contest into a near certainty, and quadding up makes any Dark Sider skilled enough to challenge the PCs virtually unbeatable.
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But what of non jedi? Why would they also get to call on the dark side, while already on a FP since they don't have those powers you are on about to 'drop' that free FP into?
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But what of non jedi? Why would they also get to call on the dark side, while already on a FP since they don't have those powers you are on about to 'drop' that free FP into? |
You seem to be assuming that because the rules allow a Dark Sider to do something (i.e. call on the Dark Side) that there must always be an advantage to that action.
But there is no reason for the rules to prevent someone from making a useless or silly action and no reason the rules must make all actions useful. A non-Force User who calls on the Dark Side gets a free FP. So it make sense and is useful to call on the Dark Side on a round when you aren't already using a FP - to conserve your FPs or to get one when you have already used all FPs up. If quadding is not invented and allowed, it doesn't make sense to use a FP and then call on the Dark Side. But there is no reason that the rules should prevent you from doing that, even if it is a wasted action that doesn't make sense. Lots of possible actions in Star Wars are wasted or don't make sense in certain circumstances.
The comment on using the FP that round is just telling you that the Dark Sider can't save or bank the FP for use at a later time. He has to use it right away - even if using it is a wasted action. (Note this is my conservative interpretation of the rules. We've already heard the Dark Side is stronger because only it can Quad FPs interpretation.) |
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Grimace
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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I'm the type of person that, when a character gets enough Dark Side Points, I take their character when they fall to the Dark Side.
So, with that in mind, I don't have a problem with doubling the double when a person burns a Force Point and then calls on the Dark Side. Remember, they can only call on the Dark Side when they are not consumed by the Dark Side. The Dark Side makes you FEEL powerful, but it only does that until it has you firmly in its grasp. Then it takes more than it gives. It entices with the feeling of being really powerful, stronger even than normal Jedi. It makes you think that you are the one in charge, that you have the control and the power. It's an illusion, though. It gives you that bonus power as an enticement, to get you to fall the Dark Side even quicker. Then, once you fall, you can't burn a Force Point and call on the Dark Side anymore. You're consumed by the Dark Side, it doesn't need to tempt you anymore. That's why a Dark sider can only gain more Force Points when spending FPs to do really evil stuff.
Considering a character is going to be calling on the Dark Side a maximum of 5 times before they fall to the Dark Side (and, in the best emperor voice: "you are now... MINE!") I think it's the perfect way to entice PCs with the Dark Side. It makes them think they're more powerful, only it's a very temporary sitution.
I can't remember reading any rules anywhere about whether the amount is doubled and doubled again, or if the extra FP is just wasted, so I don't know of a specific rule that would clarify this. |
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Grimace
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing that even remotely touches (but doesn't clarify) the subject of Force Points and calling on the Dark Side FPs is in the Gamemaster Screen "Revised" handbook.
On the last page, under Dark Side Characters, it mentions the following:
Force Points: A dark side character only receives FPs when spending FPs while committing evil at the dramatically appropriate moment. Any other time a FP is used, it is lost, even if spent while committing evil.
Dark Side Points: Dark Side characters receive DSPs for committing or actively bringing about evil actions.
Character Points: Characters no longer received CPs for adventuring. Instead they receive one CP every time they receive one DSP.
Calling Upon the Dark Side: Dark side characters may call upon the dark side to get Force Points. The control or Perception difficulty is Easy. Add 2 difficulty levels if the action will not bring pain or harm to other beings. Increase the difficulty by 1 level for each additional time in an adventure.
It Demands More Than It Gives: If a character fails in an attempt to call on the dark side, roll 1D. The character loses that number of Character Points. [If the character cannot lose the CPs] the dark side "takes" 1D from an attribute or Force skill (character's choice). If any attribute or skill is reduced to 0D, the character is consumed by the dark side and dies.
So looking at this, once you're a dark sider, you can spend FPs as normal. If you don't spend FPs at a dramatically important time, you don't get any back. You can call on the dark side at any time to get FPs. It doesn't say you get to add these, it just says you get an FP. I'm guessing since it's more difficult to spend FPs at the "dramatically appropriate evil moment" in order to get the FP back, you have to call on the dark side if you want to have a FP to use when you need it. However, calling on the dark side gets more difficult with each one you do in an adventure, and if you're not doing it to inflict evil or harm, it's even harder once you've gone over to the dark side. Fail on your attempt to call on the dark side, and you suffer loss to attributes or skills. Lose enough, you die.
Additionally, since you're CPs are coming in at a much lower rate compared to non-dark siders, you can't buffer yourself with CPs and have to use FPs more. And since you likely don't get your FPs back quite as quickly, you have to call on the dark side more, meaning a great chance of failing the roll. All in all, once you fall to the dark side, you're not the uber-bad @$$ that you thought you were before you fell to the dark side.
So I don't have a problem with saying that BEFORE a person falls to the Dark Side, they get to spend a FP, call on the dark side and double their double with the bonus FP. Once they fall to the dark side, however, it's not at all that powerful. It's a false sense of power.
Again, not any super clarification, but it does kind of reinforce the idea that once you're a dark sider, you're not doubling your double when you spend Force points. The dark side tempts you, but then leave you hanging once you fall into its clutches. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | I can't remember reading any rules anywhere about whether the amount is doubled and doubled again, or if the extra FP is just wasted, so I don't know of a specific rule that would clarify this. |
Is far as I can tell there is no clear rule on this. Hence the many discussions. 
The 2E R&E rules say only this.
| page 86 wrote: | Calling Upon the Dark Side. Characters, Force-sensitive or not, may call upon the dark side, especially when angry, aggressive, desperate or otherwise out of balance.
The character automatically receives a Dark Side Point, whether the attempt is successful or not. The character has opened himself up to anger, fear and hate; whether he "benefits" from this anger is irrelevant.
It is easy to call upon the dark side of the Force — at first. If the character is Force-sensitive, the difficulty is Easy. If the character is not Force-sensitive, the difficulty is Moderate. If the actions are not intended
to bring harm or pain to other beings, increase the difficulty by two levels (Difficult for Force-sensitives; Very Difficult for non-Force sensitives).
Increase the difficulty by +3 for each additional time the character calls upon the dark side during an adventure. (At the beginning of a new adventure, the difficulty drops back down to Easy for Force-sensitive characters and Moderate for non-sensitives.)
The character rolls either his control Force skill or Perception attribute when calling upon the dark side. A character who successfully calls upon the dark side receives a Force Point which must be spent immediately — this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round.
This option is not open to characters who refuse to believe in the existence of the Force, including many Imperial troops and officers. |
The fact that the rules specifically state that "whether he "benefits" from this anger is irrelevant" leads me to conclude quadding is not intended.
While you are correct that quadding from Call on the Dark Side is unlikely to be a frequent or long term problem for a PC - since he or she will quickly turn. I still see it as a problem both for NPC villains who use the power against the PCs and for PvP action as a PC is in the process of turning. Thus the negative game consquences of allowing quadding reinforce what I see as the most reasonable interpretation of the rules i.e. the interpretation that requires the fewest additional assumptions, that is a the most conservative interpretation of the words and grammar, that is consistent with WEG design overall, and that is most consistent with movie statements about the nature of the light and dark side. I do agree that other interpetations are possible, but I think that mine is the best interpretation (naturally  ) - based on the criteria I outlined above. |
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Grimace
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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The "whether he benefits from it" is in relation to the sentence it is following.
"The character automatically receives a Dark Side Point, whether the attempt is successful or not. The character has opened himself up to anger, fear and hate; whether he "benefits" from his anger is irrelevant."
The means that he gets the Dark Side point, coming closer to falling to the dark side, whether he gets the additional Force Point or not. It doesn't mean that the Force Point doesn't apply, as the "whether he benefits" is relating to fact that the character gains a DSP regardless whether the attempt to call on the Dark Side was successful or not.
Were that sentence following the sentence "A character who successfully calls upon the dark side receives a Force Point which must be spent immediately..." then I could see where it could give the impression that the additional FP is wasted. However, the additional part to the Force Point sentence certainly could infer an added effect "--this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round."
"In addition" generally mean you add, not subtract, the effect. Were it to say something like "this added Force point supercedes any other Force Points which have been spent that round" then I could understand the idea that you don't get an added benefit. However, the words "in addition to any other Force Points" really makes me think that you DO get the added benefit on top of the Force Point.
Like I said, it's a temptation. It makes you FEEL power because you ARE powerful. But once you fall to the dark side, that utra-power you had is gone and there's no turning back. Once you start down the path to the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny. Let a player think their character is going to bad-@$$ villian. Let them call on the dark side and get quadruple the dice, a maximum of 5 times. Then take their character. If you're the type of GM that lets players play the dark siders (I am not) then make sure you play the dark side aspects correctly. No character points for adventuring. Only for DSPs. Force point renewal even more difficult. Needing to call on the dark side just to get a Force Point, and no more stacking of Force points. And failing to call on the dark side doesn't give you a DSP, it actually REDUCES your attributes or skills. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
But there is no reason for the rules to prevent someone from making a useless or silly action and no reason the rules must make all actions useful. A non-Force User who calls on the Dark Side gets a free FP. So it make sense and is useful to call on the Dark Side on a round when you aren't already using a FP - to conserve your FPs or to get one when you have already used all FPs up. If quadding is not invented and allowed, it doesn't make sense to use a FP and then call on the Dark Side. But there is no reason that the rules should prevent you from doing that, even if it is a wasted action that doesn't make sense. Lots of possible actions in Star Wars are wasted or don't make sense in certain circumstances.
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Pray tell what other 'wasted actions are there?
| Quote: | | Like I said, it's a temptation. It makes you FEEL power because you ARE powerful. But once you fall to the dark side, that utra-power you had is gone and there's no turning back. Once you start down the path to the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny. Let a player think their character is going to bad-@$$ villian. Let them call on the dark side and get quadruple the dice, a maximum of 5 times. Then take their character. If you're the type of GM that lets players play the dark siders (I am not) then make sure you play the dark side aspects correctly. No character points for adventuring. Only for DSPs. Force point renewal even more difficult. Needing to call on the dark side just to get a Force Point, and no more stacking of Force points. And failing to call on the dark side doesn't give you a DSP, it actually REDUCES your attributes or skills. |
Thanks for the back up grimace.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Pray tell what other 'wasted actions are there? |
There are myriad examples that can be created. Here are several.
(1) Let's say a character declares 4 actions so that he can shoot at his opponent(s) 4 times. But all the opponents are dead after his second shot. The other actions are now wasted. And if you had to make a reaction parry between your first and second shot the 2 "wasted" shots decreased your parry so you may have been hit (or had to spend CPs to avoid being hit or damaged) - so not only did those two extra actions declared not help you, they actually hurt you.
(2) A player chooses a number of actions that result in MAPs that exceed his skill die code, e.g. Blaster 4D, dodge 5D, climb/jump 3D the player declares he is taking 3 shots, jumping across the chasm, and making a full move to the doorway. This is 5 actions. He shoots with a -1D blaster, he jumps with a -2D jump, and any additonal reaction parries are made with a 0D dodge. I don't believe the rules tell you that you can't do this - though such a declaration would be foolish.
(3) In a die cap system, shooting at a capital ship with a blaster pistol. Such an action has 0% chance to damage the capital ship, but nothing in the rules prevents such an action declaration. In 2E R&E you could still shoot at the capital ship, but your 4D blaster pistol is facing a soak of +12D armor and +12D shields vs the capital ship. So while the probability is > 0 it is effectively zero. So this too is essentially a wasted action.
(4) Not knowing exactly what the target number is (and the RAW doesn't say that players must know exactly what the target number is) the player, after rolling a 17, chooses to spend a CP to increase his chance to hit. He rolls a 3 increasing his total to 20 and stops. In fact the PC only needed a 17 to hit. The CP is wasted. (If using the rules from Spec Forces one may need to tweak the numbers to get no effect result from spending a CP.) Similar problems occur with any roll where the player does not know the exact target after accounting for all NPC CP/FP additions.
(5) Increasing an attribute. According to the RAW the "the character rolls the new attribute die code the GM rolls the species max die code and if the player's roll is less than or equal to the GMs the attribute increases. If not, the attribute does not and 1/2 the CP cost is lost. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | The "whether he benefits from it" is in relation to the sentence it is following. |
Yes, one could read it that way.
| Grimace wrote: | | Were that sentence following the sentence "A character who successfully calls upon the dark side receives a Force Point which must be spent immediately..." then I could see where it could give the impression that the additional FP is wasted. However, the additional part to the Force Point sentence certainly could infer an added effect "--this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round." |
I believe that the addtional part of the sentence is trying to tell you that using a FP to successfully call on the Dark Side to get a FP doesn't allow you to substitute the new FP the Dark Side gave you for the one you spent nor add the FP the Dark Side gave you to your total. It is expended immediately. In addition to any other benefits (i.e. a FP) that you may have spent that round.
| Grimace wrote: | | "In addition" generally mean you add, not subtract, the effect. Were it to say something like "this added Force point supercedes any other Force Points which have been spent that round" then I could understand the idea that you don't get an added benefit. However, the words "in addition to any other Force Points" really makes me think that you DO get the added benefit on top of the Force Point. |
There isn't any subtraction going on in anyone's interpretation. And gramatically the "in addition" applies to the FP. It is not clear that there is any additional effect. Whether there is or is not an additional effect is the point at issue. The rule elsewhere is quite clear that you can only use 1 FP so assuming that one special instance of the DS giving a point seems like it needs a clear statement of any added benefit. Quadding as an unstated benefit really seems like a huge over reach. And why Quadding instead of Tripling? To support Quadding you have to assume both an extra never stated clearly in the rules benefit and that the benefit multiplies your skill by x2 for a second time. It seems equally reasonable to argue the benefit for multiple FPs is each FP adds one multiple of your skills/attributes. So 1 FP = x2, 2 FP = x3, etc. You aren't subtracting anything. You just aren't getting an extra benefit from the Dark Side. Were the rules to say that you can get an extra Force Point that must be spent immediately - "and when combined with a previously spent FP this quadruples all skills and attribtues this round" we wouldn't be arguing. And this is exactly the sort of clear wording I'd expect for an unusual and powerful exception to the you can only use (and benefit from ) 1 FP per round rule.
| Quote: | | Let them call on the dark side and get quadruple the dice, a maximum of 5 times. Then take their character. |
That's only relevant to PCs. Most of this discussion is really centered on the power of NPC villains. Who also get to quad under this interpretation. And who, in I daresay most campaigns, don't run around earning their FPs, CPs, and DSPs on screen. They are given them by GM fiat. Based on the stats for Palps and Vader they are given FPs and CPs in numbers equivalent to the heroes. Despite any presumed rules difficulty in Dark Siders accumulating new FPs or CPs. Allowing them to quad then means that the 10D Dark Sider now has a 40D skill. No PC or group of PCs can stand up to that level of power. |
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Grimace
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
| Grimace wrote: | | "In addition" generally mean you add, not subtract, the effect. Were it to say something like "this added Force point supercedes any other Force Points which have been spent that round" then I could understand the idea that you don't get an added benefit. However, the words "in addition to any other Force Points" really makes me think that you DO get the added benefit on top of the Force Point. |
There isn't any subtraction going on in anyone's interpretation. And gramatically the "in addition" applies to the FP. It is not clear that there is any additional effect. Whether there is or is not an additional effect is the point at issue. The rule elsewhere is quite clear that you can only use 1 FP so assuming that one special instance of the DS giving a point seems like it needs a clear statement of any added benefit. |
Uh...you said "it's not clear there is any additional effect" yet it clearly states in the rules you posted "this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round. " That pretty clearly states that there's additional effects since it uses the words "in addition to".
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Quadding as an unstated benefit really seems like a huge over reach. And why Quadding instead of Tripling? To support Quadding you have to assume both an extra never stated clearly in the rules benefit and that the benefit multiplies your skill by x2 for a second time. It seems equally reasonable to argue the benefit for multiple FPs is each FP adds one multiple of your skills/attributes. So 1 FP = x2, 2 FP = x3, etc.
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If you want to triple, then triple. I think people that quad are going on the premise that using a Force point DOUBLES the amount of dice you roll. Since your dice are already doubled from the first Force Point you spent, when you get that bonus FP by calling on the Dark Side (before you fall to the dark side) the Force point is spent in addition to the one already spent, thus doubling the total again. So that would be quadruple. I'm pretty sure the rules don't state anywhere that a Force point adds one multiple. Doubling, yes, increasing by a multiple, no. But if you want to say that the second bonus FP only increases it to x3, then that's perfectly acceptable. Since the rules didn't specifically state "this quadruples what you would normall roll" it's pretty safe to put the multiplier at x3 if you think x4 is too much.
Also note that there wouldn't be a "etc.". The most that could happen would be spending a Force Point, successfully calling on the Dark Side and getting a bonus Force Point that must be spent immediately, in addition to any other Force Points spent that round. So you'd have, at most 2 Force Points spent. Whether you want that to be 3x or 4x is up to you since it wasn't explained.
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You aren't subtracting anything. You just aren't getting an extra benefit from the Dark Side. Were the rules to say that you can get an extra Force Point that must be spent immediately - "and when combined with a previously spent FP this quadruples all skills and attribtues this round" we wouldn't be arguing. And this is exactly the sort of clear wording I'd expect for an unusual and powerful exception to the you can only use (and benefit from ) 1 FP per round rule. |
The only subtracting coming about is the assumption that you seemed to present which is that the previously used Force Point is disregarded and you only get the benefit from the bonus FP provided by calling on the dark side. That is the subtraction that I was referring to. The rule doesn't state that the Force point overrides or supercedes the previously spent FP. It specifically says it's in addition to, meaning both should apply.
| Quote: | | That's only relevant to PCs. Most of this discussion is really centered on the power of NPC villains. Who also get to quad under this interpretation. And who, in I daresay most campaigns, don't run around earning their FPs, CPs, and DSPs on screen. They are given them by GM fiat. Based on the stats for Palps and Vader they are given FPs and CPs in numbers equivalent to the heroes. Despite any presumed rules difficulty in Dark Siders accumulating new FPs or CPs. Allowing them to quad then means that the 10D Dark Sider now has a 40D skill. No PC or group of PCs can stand up to that level of power. |
NPC villians? How do NPC villians get to quad their dice? Have they not fallen to the Dark Side yet? If they haven't, then yes, they get the benefit just like any PC does. The moment they fall to the dark side, THEY DON'T GET THAT BENEFIT ANYMORE. Dark Siders can only call on the Dark Side to get a Force Point. It says nowhere that the FP is in addition to anymore. The Dark Side tempts people, it doesn't give them that benefit all of the time. Make people think it's super powerful all the time, they fall to the dark side, and then it doesn't need to give them that power anymore. Instead it tries to consume them.
The Dark Side is quicker, easier and more seductive because it gives you quick power right away and lots of it. But once you fall into its grasp, it doesn't need to seduce you...it has you already. So it doesn't give that power up anymore. You need it simply to gain Force Points to use (unless you're really good at using your existing FPs at the "dramatically appropriate moment") and failure HURTS you. The dark side wants to get people to fall into its grasp, then it attempts to consume them. No more quadrupling or tripling after you're become an NPC villain. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | Uh...you said "it's not clear there is any additional effect" yet it clearly states in the rules you posted "this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round. " That pretty clearly states that there's additional effects since it uses the words "in addition to". |
No it doesn't actually. Let's look at the sentence again.
"A character who successfully calls upon the dark side receives a Force Point which must be spent immediately — this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round."
The first clause of the sentence (the part before the dash) says the following:
1) A character who successfully calls on the dark side gets a FP.
2) The FP must be spent immediately (i.e. it cannot be banked or save).
Agreed so far?
The part after the dash says "this" is in addition to any other FP that have been spent that round. What does "this" refer to? Here, "this" clearly refers to the FP that is received for calling on the Dark Side and that must be used immediately. So substituting for "this" the second half of the sentence (the part after the dash) says the following:
3) A character who successfully calls on the dark side gets a FP which must be used immediately and is in addition to any Force Points which have been spent that round.
Again agreed so far?
Now there are two things that are odd about this sentence.
(i) The second half refers to spending Force Points (plural) in addition to the Force Point spent for calling on the dark side. But the earlier rules clearly state that only one FP can be spent in a round. So where do these other FPs that are spent in addition to the FP recieved from the Dark Side come from and how are they spent? The answer is, I think, no where. This is just a poorly worded, confused or incorrect statement.
(ii) No additional benefit for spending more than one FP in a round (either the multiple Force Points spent before calling on the Dark Side or the FP received from the Dark Side) is listed. Why not?
(a) There isn't supposed to be any extra benefit and Dark Siders are supposed to be smart enough not to use a FP to call on the Dark Side to get a FP since it nets out to zero effect. And if they aren't smart enough, well too bad. This would be consistent with the previous statement that benefits for calling on the dark side are irrelevant to receiving a DSP and also irrelevant to the result of both using a FP and calling on the Dark Side for an extra FP.
(b) There is supposed to be an extra benefit for calling on the Dark Side. But rather than list the benefit the designers require us to guess what it is. But any significant benefit means that Yoda was being metaphorical rather than literal when he said that the Dark Side is not stronger. Because clearly the Dark Side, if it allows quadding is stronger than the light side (which does not allow quadding). The designers couldn't be bothered to add "and if the character uses a FP and successfully calls on the Dark Side, then all skills and attributes, from that point on in the round, are quadrupled" to clarify that they intended that the Dark Side was stronger when called upon and that there was a benefit that those that successfully call on the dark side get that those that stick to the light do not.
| Grimace wrote: | | If you want to triple, then triple. |
I don't. My point is that even if we assume that using a FP and calling on the dark side provides an added benefit over using a single FP we still don't know what the benefit is. So people are assuming that it is quadding.
| Grimace wrote: | | I'm pretty sure the rules don't state anywhere that a Force point adds one multiple. |
They don't. But they do clearly state that you can only spend one FP in a round. And when you do, it doubles. There is no rule for a second doubling.
| Grimace wrote: | | The only subtracting coming about is the assumption that you seemed to present which is that the previously used Force Point is disregarded and you only get the benefit from the bonus FP provided by calling on the dark side. |
No the only benefit comes from the first FP used in the round, whatever it's source. If that is a normal FP then calling on the Dark Side provides no added benefit. If no FP was used before calling on the Dark Side, then the Dark Side gives you a FP which provides a benefit. I am just assuming that there isn't a double benefit from the dark side.
| Grimace wrote: | | The rule doesn't state that the Force point overrides or supercedes the previously spent FP. |
No it doesn't. Nor does it state that the use of a second FP in the round provides any additional benefit. Meaning, IMO, there is no additional benefit.
| Grimace wrote: | | NPC villians? How do NPC villians get to quad their dice? |
By calling on the Dark Side. There is nothing in the description that limits this to characters who have not yet turned. In fact the rules clearly state that Dark Side characters can call on the Dark Side to get Force Points.
| R&E page 152 wrote: | Calling Upon the Dark Side. Dark side characters may call upon the dark side to get Force Points.
The difficulty is Easy the first time the dark side is called upon in an adventure; add two difficulty levels if the action will not bring pain or harm to other beings. Increase the difficulty by one level for each additional time in an adventure the character calls upon the dark side. |
Quaddin is problematic for all characters who call on the Dark Side - PCs, NPCs, non-force sensitives, those that have not yet turned, and those like Vader and Palpatine that turned long ago. That's why allowing quadding clearly shows that Yoda was wrong or lied and the Dark Side is stronger. In fact 2x as strong as the light side.
And again, just to be absolutely clear what's in the rules and what is my interpretation.
The rules are not unambiguous on what happens if a character uses a FP in the same round that he successfully calls on the Dark Side. No additional benefit is listed in the rules. No additional benefit is provided in the rules. But it is not unambiguously stated that there is no benefit. So, unsurprisingly, different people are choosing to do what they prefer. I think, for a number of reasons, that my interpretation is more likely to be what the designers intended than that of those that favor quadding, but the rules just don't clarify and so far no one has turned up any errata or rules clarification by the designers to shed some light on this. |
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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well, suffice to say, you are choosing to ignore the words "in addition to" in the rules to signify that additional benefit is inferred.
Yes, it is very ambiguous. Yes, people can interpret it differently. So is it also suffice to say that this thread is done and over since it will NEVER be answered by any of us?
Considering we are some of the most steadfast fans of the Star Wars D6 game system and we haven't been able to find an instance of clarification on this, it is safe to assume that there IS NO clarification on this. There IS NO official ruling on this. So what happens with a called upon force point falls under house rules. House rules have their own interpretations so people can have them any way they want, which is exactly what this specific conundrum needs.
The original question of whether the FP doubles before or after deduction was answered with a posted rule. This add-on with the dark side is a special condition that appears to have never been answered, so it's rather pointless to be going round in circles on it.
I suggest ways to handle "calling upon the dark side" be moved to House Rules, as there's no Official rule regarding it and obviously no consensus on how it should be intrepreted. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | Well, suffice to say, you are choosing to ignore the words "in addition to" in the rules to signify that additional benefit is inferred. |
I'm not ignoring, I just don't agree that it means what you think it means. I agree that given the ambiguity house rules is probably where it belongs.
I am curious how GM's that use quadding avoid killing off their PCs when they face a Dark Sider who calls on the Dark Side. |
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