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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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True, but it's not unreasonable to assume that what we do get to see in that 3 minutes is the core truths, the important stuff
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Could be Yoda just didn't trust Luke to make the right choices in his anger. |
That, in turn, presupposes that Yoda was a manipulative @$$ whose only goal was to shape Luke into a weapon, not the paragon of a new order of Jedi. Yoda had to know that his time was running out, so he had to instill specific and important lessons into Luke. The fact that those lessons parrot several of his other statements in the prequels just bolsters my point. Whatever else may have changed or been contradictory, the Jedi order was adamant that anger, fear and aggression were the path to the Dark Side, and any Jedi who dabbled in them was exposing drastic weaknesses in his own psyche.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Could be Yoda just didn't trust Luke to make the right choices in his anger. |
That, in turn, presupposes that Yoda was a manipulative @$$ whose only goal was to shape Luke into a weapon, not the paragon of a new order of Jedi. |
A presupposition not entirely unsupported by the evidence.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Could be Yoda just didn't trust Luke to make the right choices in his anger. |
That, in turn, presupposes that Yoda was a manipulative @$$ whose only goal was to shape Luke into a weapon, not the paragon of a new order of Jedi. |
A presupposition not entirely unsupported by the evidence. |
That goes against the entire idea of space opera in general and Star Wars as a whole. In the SWU and especially in the OT, good and evil are pretty clear concepts, even if the dividing line between them isn't always so clear. Good characters in the SWU are defined by their actions, and for Yoda and Obi-wan to so callously manipulate Luke goes against the very concept of good. If you want to believe that the Jedi Order could be so corrupted that they could do something like this simply for the sake of turning another human being into a living weapon, that's your business, but it sounds diametrically opposed to the core concepts of Star Wars to me.
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Jatrell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I agree that the concept of good and evil was rather cut and dry in the OT. I never had a problem (even as a child) understanding that Luke was good and Vader was evil. When I got older I never saw any manipulation from the Jedi counsel. Now they did in the Kotor game, but not the OT.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Could be Yoda just didn't trust Luke to make the right choices in his anger. |
That, in turn, presupposes that Yoda was a manipulative @$$ whose only goal was to shape Luke into a weapon, not the paragon of a new order of Jedi. |
A presupposition not entirely unsupported by the evidence. |
That goes against the entire idea of space opera in general and Star Wars as a whole. In the SWU and especially in the OT, good and evil are pretty clear concepts, even if the dividing line between them isn't always so clear. Good characters in the SWU are defined by their actions, and for Yoda and Obi-wan to so callously manipulate Luke goes against the very concept of good. If you want to believe that the Jedi Order could be so corrupted that they could do something like this simply for the sake of turning another human being into a living weapon, that's your business, but it sounds diametrically opposed to the core concepts of Star Wars to me. |
Granted, I'm a lot more lenient towards the idea of turning people into living weapons, but this is just some of the massive fridge horror that accretes in some of the plot holes in SW. We've all probably seen, or even held the big discussion about Obi-Wan lying about Vader murdering Anakin in ANH. Yoda would be an accomplice in that.
We're delving in pretty deep territory here, and SW, especially in the field of ethics, only stands up to shallow scrutiny. If you look to close, you realize it's not a "good versus evil" space opera, but a "people who don't quite know how to be good v.s. evil" space opera.
If you want to look beneath the surface, you have to assume that some things can't be taken at face value. Yoda could easily have been manipulating Luke because he thought it was necessary, and not doing so would be a travesty against the galaxy. Great generals are always willing to sacrifice one man to save a trillion.
It's also possible that Yoda was just flat wrong. He didn't seem to notice the force was imbalanced in favor of the Light Side when they talked about Anaking bringing balance to the force. In less than 40 years Anakin turned thousands to two odds into 2 to 2 odds. (Going by Jedi shown in the movies, not the EU.) Balance.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:44 am Post subject: |
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It sounds more like you are trying to invent a reason why a Jedi could use negative emotions. You must be a Sith Lord in disguise.
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Jatrell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a guy in my group. Always trying to justify throwing someone off the cliff to "save the group" or using a jedi version of telekinetic kill. I keep telling him that instead of throwing him off the cliff, rip the gun out of his hand with the force. But he is just power hungry and wants to be all powerfull. Told hm he shouldn't play a jedi then
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | True, but it's not unreasonable to assume that what we do get to see in that 3 minutes is the core truths, the important stuff |
More reasonable to say it is the 3 minutes that conveys enough information to set up a conflict -
Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.
Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
Yoda and Obi-Wan set Luke to confront his father with a clear implication that it is a kill or be killed confrontation. Yoda doesn't directly confirm that, but that is quite in keeping with Yoda's frequent evasions. I think there is room in the movies to see Yoda as cynically manipulative in the OT and surprisingly clueless in the PT.
Personally, I just choose to go with a more generous interpretation that Yoda - for unclear, Zen like reasons possibly involving the importance of Luke being allowed to choose his actions in the confrontation without foreknowledge in the OT and that Sidious is somehow able to cloud Yoda and the Concil's insights in the PT. If I want a more cynical or gray game world, I play something else - say Call of Cthulhu or maybe Runequest. I play Star Wars because it is relatively black and white (or light gray if you prefer).  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jatrell wrote: | | Sounds like a guy in my group. Always trying to justify throwing someone off the cliff to "save the group" or using a jedi version of telekinetic kill. I keep telling him that instead of throwing him off the cliff, rip the gun out of his hand with the force. But he is just power hungry and wants to be all powerfull. Told hm he shouldn't play a jedi then |
I'd say let him, then hit him with DSPs for it.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | It sounds more like you are trying to invent a reason why a Jedi could use negative emotions. You must be a Sith Lord in disguise. |
Who said I was in disguise?
It just doesn't make sense to me that they couldn't use "negative" emotions. Even thinking of those emotions as negative strikes me as a misnomer. Don't you get pissed off when you hear stories about child neglect and things like that? That angry voice in side screaming "this is wrong!" is a great motivator to do something good, but acting on it in Star Wars would be a brush with the Dark Side.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe because that's what Yoda says? "Anger, fear, agression. The Dark Side are they. Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you, it will..."
You can try to rationalize it all you want, but the fact remains that Yoda is makes a very clear statement about those emotions being the slippery slope to falling to the Dark Side. Several authors in the EU have offered an explanation that works well for me, in that the key point dividing dark and light on these emotions is understanding. A person who understands themself is in control of their emotions and does not give in to them, but a person who allows themselves to be controlled by those emotions (usually acting selfishly) is falling under the sway of the Dark Side. IMO, when Yoda uses the terms anger, fear and aggression, he is refering to overpowering emotions that drive a person beyond reason, into the realm of mindless frenzy and abject panic.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Maybe because that's what Yoda says? "Anger, fear, agression. The Dark Side are they. Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you, it will..."
You can try to rationalize it all you want, but the fact remains that Yoda is makes a very clear statement about those emotions being the slippery slope to falling to the Dark Side. Several authors in the EU have offered an explanation that works well for me, in that the key point dividing dark and light on these emotions is understanding. A person who understands themself is in control of their emotions and does not give in to them, but a person who allows themselves to be controlled by those emotions (usually acting selfishly) is falling under the sway of the Dark Side. IMO, when Yoda uses the terms anger, fear and aggression, he is refering to overpowering emotions that drive a person beyond reason, into the realm of mindless frenzy and abject panic. |
You can lose control to the "positive" emotions as well. This is why someone high on heroin and holding a straight razor does not make a good friend.
Also, you make the not uncommon assumptions that what Yoda says is correct. He may be wrong, manipulating, over generalizing, making stuff up as he goes along, or whatever. It's popular to view Yoda as the be-all end-all final word on the force, because he's old and talks funny and lifts the biggest thing with his brain. That doesn't necessarily make it so. He comes from the Old Republic Jedi Order, and obviously subscribes to and has a hand in their doctrines, which fall apart, even within the story line of the six movie saga.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | You can lose control to the "positive" emotions as well. This is why someone high on heroin and holding a straight razor does not make a good friend. |
Well, for starters, people who are using drugs are automatically making selfish decisions, so they are already on the edge of Dark Side behavior. Secondly, that is really an F-ed up example. When I think positive emotions, some drugged up wacko playing with a razor blade does not come to mind. Think more like little kids at Disneyland for the first time. If a heroin high is your idea of an uncontrolled positive emotion, no wonder your view of the SWU is so grey.
| Quote: | | Also, you make the not uncommon assumptions that what Yoda says is correct. He may be wrong, manipulating, over generalizing, making stuff up as he goes along, or whatever. It's popular to view Yoda as the be-all end-all final word on the force, because he's old and talks funny and lifts the biggest thing with his brain. That doesn't necessarily make it so. |
At 900 years old, Yoda is the ex-Grand Master of the Jedi Order, who has spent almost all of his life as a Jedi, and who has also had 20 years of downtime to contemplate the Force and where the Jedi went wrong. If anyone in the galaxy could be qualified as an expert on the Force, it would be Yoda. He may not be perfect, but I would certainly take Yoda's word on the Force over anyone else's.
| Quote: | | He comes from the Old Republic Jedi Order, and obviously subscribes to and has a hand in their doctrines, which fall apart, even within the story line of the six movie saga. |
And again, we don't know what has changed over the twenty years that Yoda has had to sit in a swamp and think things over. IMO, it is easier to explain the philosophical differences between the OT and the prequels by saying that Yoda and Obi-wan have had time to contemplate the failures of the Jedi doctrine, and have abandoned certain dogmatic aspects of the order's teaching in favor of a more open, back-to-basics approach than it is to say that Yoda and Obi-wan have perverted and undermined the concept of goodness and light merely to forge Luke into a weapon of revenge focused on the Sith. If you want to believe Star Wars really is that dark, you go right ahead, but you aren't going to convince me.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
Well, for starters, people who are using drugs are automatically making selfish decisions, so they are already on the edge of Dark Side behavior. Secondly, that is really an F-ed up example. When I think positive emotions, some drugged up wacko playing with a razor blade does not come to mind. Think more like little kids at Disneyland for the first time. If a heroin high is your idea of an uncontrolled positive emotion, no wonder your view of the SWU is so grey.
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Again an extreme example for the purposes of illustrating a point. Drugs aren't the only example of this; it can happen naturally. Say the Jedi has a wife (under some loophole or another) and sleeps around on her. Love is a positive emotion.
| crmcneill wrote: |
At 900 years old, Yoda is the ex-Grand Master of the Jedi Order, who has spent almost all of his life as a Jedi, and who has also had 20 years of downtime to contemplate the Force and where the Jedi went wrong. If anyone in the galaxy could be qualified as an expert on the Force, it would be Yoda. He may not be perfect, but I would certainly take Yoda's word on the Force over anyone else's...
...again, we don't know what has changed over the twenty years that Yoda has had to sit in a swamp and think things over. IMO, it is easier to explain the philosophical differences between the OT and the prequels by saying that Yoda and Obi-wan have had time to contemplate the failures of the Jedi doctrine, and have abandoned certain dogmatic aspects of the order's teaching in favor of a more open, back-to-basics approach than it is to say that Yoda and Obi-wan have perverted and undermined the concept of goodness and light merely to forge Luke into a weapon of revenge focused on the Sith. If you want to believe Star Wars really is that dark, you go right ahead, but you aren't going to convince me. |
So he did it wrong for 880 years, then rethought it for 20 years when it all fell apart, but didn't change the core principals that led to the breakdown, and didn't get a chance to test his new ideas. You sure you want to trust his judgement?
I say he was unwilling or unable to abandon the idea that emotions cause morality because he'd been thinking that way for 800 years. I say he didn't have anything to fall back on but that deep dogma, so he let it be and stripped away everything else. He trimmed the fat, but left the skeleton.
Whether that turned him into a cold-hearted trainer of assassins or a misguided forest hippie doesn't effect my view of Star Wars at all. It's all still a black and white universe full of varying shades of gray people.
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