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atgxtg
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: |
Id definitely say Dodge. Force Push has a range, albeit not to long, and is not a touch attack. |
The same could be said for a lightsaber attack. You don't touch the guy you hit him with the end of the blade. The question here is Force Push like an Arrow or like a pike, to the Jedi using it.
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Perhaps, if done while in melee it could be parried. In a similar way I let people parry blaster attacks if the attacker is in melee with the target. |
Remeber, according to the RAW, melee parry includes footwook and avoiding an attack, not just blocking it with a weapon. That is why, by the RAW you can parry a lightsaber with a vibroblade, and why the blade isn't cut in half.So a parry can look ust like a dodge. All those ducks and backflips in the films would be considered parries by the RAW.
Ths the key factor his is if Force Push counts as a ranged attack or a melee one.
And if it is a ranged attack, can you dodge Alter/Kill? and similar Telekinetic powers? |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Could be and that would work from a game mechanics POV. Watch the scene if you get a chance. It looks to me like the affect goes right over his head and back like he ducked it rather than purely bracing himself. That's what actually surprised me in the scene. |
Will do. Could you give me an Episode # and a time marker?
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Ths the key factor his is if Force Push counts as a ranged attack or a melee one.
And if it is a ranged attack, can you dodge Alter/Kill? and similar Telekinetic powers? |
Possibly not all ranged attacks would be alike. Some may be visually targeted (and we see some powers list line of sight for range), others may be targeted via the Sense skill, while still others may be a sort of area effect. If there are different types of ranged attacks, then visually targeted could be dodged while Sense targeted would require PER or Control to avoid being targeted successfully. Area attacks could be either, I suspect, but would be more difficult to dodge if dodge was allowed. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Since the only ranged attack i know of for the force is bolt of hatred (and yes it does give you a to hit roll), i do not see how others which do NOT have to hit rolls can be dodged.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Since the only ranged attack i know of for the force is bolt of hatred (and yes it does give you a to hit roll), i do not see how others which do NOT have to hit rolls can be dodged. |
I don't see 'ranged attack' as synonymous with 'has a to hit roll.' Lots of powers are ranged or ranged attacks. That's what the proximity modifier is for after all. And lots of things have a to hit roll that are not ranged attack, all melee skills for example. So clearly the two are not identical.
Force Push (Line of sight), Projected fighting (Line of sight), Telekinesis, Force Lightning (Line of sight), Auro of Uneasiness (Line of sight), Drain Energy (Line of sight), Malacia (Line of sight), and Telekinetic kill all have a use proximity and so are ranged attacks. Some don't seem like they would be dodgeable, but some, quite frankly, do.
As to how you would dodge something that doesn't have a to hit roll, well Waves of darkness has a visible area of effect and motion, dodging out of the target area should work, Force Wind is similar and the area could be avoided by movement or dodging. Lots of force powers are invoked with visible gestures e.g. force push, telekinesis, and force lightning so a reaction defense has some rationale. For any power that is line of sight, if you move out of the line of sight for a line of sight power that should prevent it from working. So, yeah I can see a number of ways to avoid a power that does not have a 'to hit' roll. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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RE: "Ranged Attacks"
Okay, so the stormtroper realizes that he is dead,and is a heroic act of self sacrfice detonates his frag greande without thriwing it. Since he didn't makean attack roll to throw the greande, does that mean the PCs standing next to him can't dodge? If they can7t, I can see how the Empire could wipe out the rebels PDQ with armies fo suicide bombers. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Possibly not all ranged attacks would be alike. Some may be visually targeted (and we see some powers list line of sight for range), others may be targeted via the Sense skill, while still others may be a sort of area effect. If there are different types of ranged attacks, then visually targeted could be dodged while Sense targeted would require PER or Control to avoid being targeted successfully. Area attacks could be either, I suspect, but would be more difficult to dodge if dodge was allowed. |
Pissibly not. But, the intent of the rules was to give the PCs some sort of defense roll against any attack. Just what to roll varies.
The (unoffical) write up of Force Push has the power resisted by Control or STR. So in game terms the Trando might have just made his STR roll.
Maybe Force Push should have an attack roll and Ahsoka botched it? Who knows? I'm inclined to go with the STR roll winning, though, based on how melee/lightsaber combat works. In the films Jedi clearly "dodge" some attacks, but by RAW those are just successful parries. So if a back-flip can be considered a "parry" then so could the Trando's "dodge" At least according to how the RAW work.
Last edited by atgxtg on Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Pissibly not. |
atgxtg, are you posting from the bar again?
| atgxtg wrote: | | The (unoffical) write up of Force Push has the power resisted by Control or STR. So in game terms the Trando might have just made his STR roll. |
Yes, but in the TV show it looked like a dodge. Which made me wonder if it would be interesting to allow someone - say an experienced martial artist like a Bruce Lee character in the movies - to either substitute their dodgde for their STR roll or to allow a successful dodge to somehow augment their resistance roll.
I wasn't really trying to get into the whole dodge versus melee or brawling parry as evasion debate. The rules clearly intend evasion of melee weapons to be done with the appropriate parry skill with modifiers if it is a brawling or lightsaber rather than melee parry that is used. That being said, I will admit I have allowed players to avoid melee or brawling attacks via the dodge skill. But I am a much nicer GM in Star Wars than I ever was a DM in the bad old days of Death & Despair and much more player survival over objective dice rolls oriented than in my Runequest days. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg, are you posting from the bar again? |
Sorry. Some typos I don't spot on a 5" screen.
| Bren wrote: | | Yes, but in the TV show it looked like a dodge. |
But in the TV shows andFilms it often "looks" like a dodge., even when it, by RAW, isn't.
| Bren wrote: |
Which made me wonder if it would be interesting to allow someone - say an experienced martial artist like a Bruce Lee character in the movies - to either substitute their dodgde for their STR roll or to allow a successful dodge to somehow augment their resistance roll. |
Interesting, but probably unbalancing. In game terms it makes dodge too useful at the expense of other abilities. Just like with melee attacks. If a character, experience dmartial artist or not, can dodge lightsaber attacks, it devalues the other defensive skills.
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I wasn't really trying to get into the whole dodge versus melee or brawling parry as evasion debate. |
I wan7t really pushing for that either.Just that there is a difference between what we see and how it is intepreted by the RAW. So the Trando's 'dodge" might not be a dodge in game terms.
One interesting thing about this use of the Force is that unlike previous version of Force Push and TK, Ahsoka doesn't seem to be affecting the Trando directly. he isn't pushing the Trando away,but instead is directing something at him. So she could be using a differernt power than Force Push.
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But I am a much nicer GM in Star Wars than I ever was a DM in the bad old days of Death & Despair and much more player survival over objective dice rolls oriented than in my Runequest days. |
My Gming style changes with the game I'm running. Star Wars demands a more tolerant approach, since the odds would be insurmountable if I ran things strictly "fair and impartial".
But back to the topic, my point isthat we really don7t know just what is hapening during the scene, or how it would translate into game terms. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, fair point. And you are right about what looks like a dodge may be another type of resistance/avoidance.
I think they want the force push to have a visible effect in the TV show so the audience can see what Asoka is doing. It does end up looking more like an airbender from the Avatar TV show. Though that may not entirely be a bad thing. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | The same could be said for a lightsaber attack. You don't touch the guy you hit him with the end of the blade. |
Well, the difference is that with Force Push you dont touch at all, its air between you and the target. Thats why Force Push has a range and lighsaber combat does not...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Since the only ranged attack i know of for the force is bolt of hatred (and yes it does give you a to hit roll), i do not see how others which do NOT have to hit rolls can be dodged. |
I don't see 'ranged attack' as synonymous with 'has a to hit roll.' Lots of powers are ranged or ranged attacks. That's what the proximity modifier is for after all. And lots of things have a to hit roll that are not ranged attack, all melee skills for example. So clearly the two are not identical.
Force Push (Line of sight), Projected fighting (Line of sight), Telekinesis, Force Lightning (Line of sight), Auro of Uneasiness (Line of sight), Drain Energy (Line of sight), Malacia (Line of sight), and Telekinetic kill all have a use proximity and so are ranged attacks. Some don't seem like they would be dodgeable, but some, quite frankly, do.
As to how you would dodge something that doesn't have a to hit roll, well Waves of darkness has a visible area of effect and motion, dodging out of the target area should work, Force Wind is similar and the area could be avoided by movement or dodging. Lots of force powers are invoked with visible gestures e.g. force push, telekinesis, and force lightning so a reaction defense has some rationale. For any power that is line of sight, if you move out of the line of sight for a line of sight power that should prevent it from working. So, yeah I can see a number of ways to avoid a power that does not have a 'to hit' roll. |
So.. what other force powers should be dodgable? Should we just require to hit rolls instead of the force power activation, or in addition to?
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So.. what other force powers should be dodgable? Should we just require to hit rolls instead of the force power activation, or in addition to? |
If you're going to rule that you can dodge some force powers then it seems resonable to consider the activation roll the to-hit.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Makes sense to me.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Makes sense not to add another roll for the Force User.
I'm not sold on the dodge idea myself, but it was something I was surprised to see in the TV show and I wanted to mention it. I don't think it is appropriate for all or even most defenders, but maybe for specially trained defenders i.e. agile defenders who are familiar with force powers either from some sort of special training like the commando droids in the Clone Wars episode The Citadel, some specially trained Jedi hunters, or from direct experience and observation. It would also be a good thing to allow PCs to do the second or third time that a force user tries to use a given power on them. |
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