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atgxtg
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 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Possibly, but then shouldn't the description of either Stun damage or Droid characters specifically note that stun setting does not affect droids, if that is the case? |
Yes, it probably should. But it seems peculiar that there are ion grenades and ion weapons designed specifically to work on droids that do not affect biologicals (see Jawa Ionization Blaster description for example) if a regular stun setting does the same thing to droids as does an ion weapon.
To me the inference has always been clear that the Jawa Ionization weapon (and weapons of that typle) are affective against droids only and that regular stun settings is for bio folks only. |
To me the inference was that Ion greades do Ion damageon the Ion table. Which can give nastiest results than nomaldamage.
 Oh, you guys mean putting normal weapons on Stun! No I don't allow droid to be KO'd by stun results. I jjust treat weapons set on stun as normal when used against droids. Basically dumping a big eletrical charge into a computer is just as bad as blowing holes in it. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I give ion weaponry the same unpredictable effects on biologicals as stun weapons on droids, but I'm pretty sure Bren and I don't run things the same way here... |
I'm curious what you mean by unpredictable results... |
Oh, heck. Anything the GM feels appropriate. Memory loss, confusion, temporary loss of senses or control over limbs, nothing, explody death, slurred speech. You name it.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I give ion weaponry the same unpredictable effects on biologicals as stun weapons on droids, but I'm pretty sure Bren and I don't run things the same way here... |
I'm curious what you mean by unpredictable results... |
Oh, heck. Anything the GM feels appropriate. Memory loss, confusion, temporary loss of senses or control over limbs, nothing, explody death, slurred speech. You name it. |
Do you do that with all ion weapons? The reason I ask is at least two ion weapons specifically mention damage to droids only. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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On a slight tangent (but still related), has anyone ever come up with rules for ion cannon affecting non-electronic targets? Even if the ion cannon is simply disrupting electrical flow instead of actually delivering an electrical charge, the impact alone should have some sort of effect...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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To me the ONLY ion weapons that can affect a biological are cap ship ones, if they hit you when you are in an escape chair (fighter).. Like what happened to Mara jade.
| Quote: | | On a slight tangent (but still related), has anyone ever come up with rules for ion cannon affecting non-electronic targets? Even if the ion cannon is simply disrupting electrical flow instead of actually delivering an electrical charge, the impact alone should have some sort of effect... |
Like what... shooting a building?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I give ion weaponry the same unpredictable effects on biologicals as stun weapons on droids, but I'm pretty sure Bren and I don't run things the same way here... |
I'm curious what you mean by unpredictable results... |
Oh, heck. Anything the GM feels appropriate. Memory loss, confusion, temporary loss of senses or control over limbs, nothing, explody death, slurred speech. You name it. |
Do you do that with all ion weapons? The reason I ask is at least two ion weapons specifically mention damage to droids only. |
Pretty much. Anything that can make arcs as long as a Jawa ion blaster's demands a voltage up past 100,000, and arcs of that diameter suggest reasonably high amperage. EMP weapons are different, though.
What weapons were you thinking of?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Like what... shooting a building? |
Not sure what you mean here, but...
Anyway, the point is that, even if an ion cannon is designed to affect targets with active electronics, you are still firing a mass of subatomic particles at high velocity. That's going to have some type of physical effect on a target, electronic or otherwise...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | What weapons were you thinking of? |
Jawa Ionization Gun "affects droids only" Crackens' Rebel Field Guide p 73, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20
Ion Gun Pistol/Rifle "An ion gun’s blast has no effect on organic targets, unless such targets have cybernetic replacements." d20 Core Rulebook p 137
Droid Disabler "4D ionization damage" Galladinium’s Fantastic Technology p 77, Lord of the Expanse – Sector Guide p 45, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20
DEMP Gun "Personal anti-droid electromagnetic pulse weapon" Contains 3 settings. Imperial Sourcebook p 122-123, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20-21
DEMP Gun 2 "Game Notes: Settings 1-3 affect droids only, while setting 4 affects both living beings and droids." Contains one extra setting, setting #4, which affects living beings, is only included in the DEMP Gun 2 and it does 2D less damage to living beings than it does to droids.
DEMP Carbine has the same three settings as the basic DEMP Gun.
Mandroxan Droid Disabler "Anti-droid weapon" and "When hit, droids suffer a -1D to skill and attribute rolls for the next three rounds of the target is stunned; otherwise, the droid is rendered “unconscious” as per the “Stun Damage” rules. While no permanent damage is done, a diagnostic overhaul and power-up will be required to reactivate the droid." Galaxy Guide 11: Criminal Organizations p 83-84, Gundark’s Fantastic Technology p107-108
I looked at the Ion weapons entry in the Weapons PDF and only one of the listed weapons specifically include damage to living beings. Three specifically list no damage to living beings, several others can be taken to imply damage only to droids since no damage effect for living beings is listed and/or the weapon is specifically described as anti-droid. The only example that lists damage to living beings has it only on one of 4 settings - the highest powered setting - where it does 5D to droids but only 3D to living beings.
From that I conclude that most anti-droid weapons do not effect humans, those that do would have a much lower effect on humans.
I have not data on ship scale ionization weapons, but extrapolating from the DEMP Gun 2 it would make sense that they would do damage to living beings, but less damage than an equivalent scaled blaster. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | What weapons were you thinking of? |
Jawa Ionization Gun "affects droids only" Crackens' Rebel Field Guide p 73, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20
Ion Gun Pistol/Rifle "An ion gun’s blast has no effect on organic targets, unless such targets have cybernetic replacements." d20 Core Rulebook p 137
Droid Disabler "4D ionization damage" Galladinium’s Fantastic Technology p 77, Lord of the Expanse – Sector Guide p 45, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20
DEMP Gun "Personal anti-droid electromagnetic pulse weapon" Contains 3 settings. Imperial Sourcebook p 122-123, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20-21
DEMP Gun 2 "Game Notes: Settings 1-3 affect droids only, while setting 4 affects both living beings and droids." Contains one extra setting, setting #4, which affects living beings, is only included in the DEMP Gun 2 and it does 2D less damage to living beings than it does to droids.
DEMP Carbine has the same three settings as the basic DEMP Gun.
Mandroxan Droid Disabler "Anti-droid weapon" and "When hit, droids suffer a -1D to skill and attribute rolls for the next three rounds of the target is stunned; otherwise, the droid is rendered “unconscious” as per the “Stun Damage” rules. While no permanent damage is done, a diagnostic overhaul and power-up will be required to reactivate the droid." Galaxy Guide 11: Criminal Organizations p 83-84, Gundark’s Fantastic Technology p107-108
I looked at the Ion weapons entry in the Weapons PDF and only one of the listed weapons specifically include damage to living beings. Three specifically list no damage to living beings, several others can be taken to imply damage only to droids since no damage effect for living beings is listed and/or the weapon is specifically described as anti-droid. The only example that lists damage to living beings has it only on one of 4 settings - the highest powered setting - where it does 5D to droids but only 3D to living beings.
From that I conclude that most anti-droid weapons do not effect humans, those that do would have a much lower effect on humans.
I have not data on ship scale ionization weapons, but extrapolating from the DEMP Gun 2 it would make sense that they would do damage to living beings, but less damage than an equivalent scaled blaster. |
I treat DEMP and other EMP guns as doing no damage to biologicals, except on the very highest power levels (as reflected in those stats). Apart from the ion guns, I don't know the operating principals behind the others. Ion guns are electrical weapons, and if what we see in ANH is any indication of a standard blast, they have the energy output required to burn, injure, numb, paralyze, and even kill.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Jawa Ionization Gun "affects droids only" Crackens' Rebel Field Guide p 73, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20 |
Ion guns are electrical weapons, and if what we see in ANH is any indication of a standard blast, they have the energy output required to burn, injure, numb, paralyze, and even kill. |
I agree it looks impressive on the screen, but dramatically it is supposed to. We the audience are supposed to be worried that R2 is dead, damaged, nonfunctional, what have you. That is the reason that (a) you have such a visible discharge and (b) we hear his pathetic squeal. You are supposed to feel worried for him.
But based on the stats for that same Jawa ionization gun it specifically affects droids only. Not living beings. You are of course free to change that, but then you aren't really in the Official Rules section of the Forum. |
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Fallon Kell
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Jawa Ionization Gun "affects droids only" Crackens' Rebel Field Guide p 73, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20 |
Ion guns are electrical weapons, and if what we see in ANH is any indication of a standard blast, they have the energy output required to burn, injure, numb, paralyze, and even kill. |
I agree it looks impressive on the screen, but dramatically it is supposed to. We the audience are supposed to be worried that R2 is dead, damaged, nonfunctional, what have you. That is the reason that (a) you have such a visible discharge and (b) we hear his pathetic squeal. You are supposed to feel worried for him.
But based on the stats for that same Jawa ionization gun it specifically affects droids only. Not living beings. You are of course free to change that, but then you aren't really in the Official Rules section of the Forum. |
I suppose that's due to WEG not noticing that a jawa ion gun is still half blaster, and not really understanding the physics of electrical arcs...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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My question with ion cannon is the origin of the electrical arcs. The definition of an ion is "an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge." So does it deliver an electrical charge, or do the charged particles draw off the electrons present in the electronic systems of the target? Is the electrical arcing produced by the cannon blast, or does the presence of the ions create a short circuit path, and the source of the electrical arcing is the target's own power systems?
With regards to Stun setting, I prefer to go with the technobabble approach and assume that the tech is above and beyond what we currently understand. I think a Stun blast is a broad spectrum EM burst that disrupts the electrical impulses in the target's nervous system. The problem here is that, if an EM blast operates in a broad enough spectrum to affect all known organic lifeforms, and EM is also lethal against droids and other electronics, then the EM blast from a blaster set on Stun should have a negative effect on droids...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | My question with ion cannon is the origin of the electrical arcs. The definition of an ion is "an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge." So does it deliver an electrical charge, or do the charged particles draw off the electrons present in the electronic systems of the target? Is the electrical arcing produced by the cannon blast, or does the presence of the ions create a short circuit path, and the source of the electrical arcing is the target's own power systems?
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The positive or negative charge is an electrical imbalance. Let's take a negative charge for example, since I think that's what polarity Ion cannons generally fire. A negative ion has too many electrons for however many protons the atom has. I assume an ion cannon's weaponized ions have wayyy more electrons than protons. Nature seeks to equalize that charge, so when the extra electrons get an opportunity to jump to, say, the ground by way of the highly conductive circuits in a droid, they do. All the extra electrons jump to the droid, creating a strong electrical current, which travels down to the ground, where all the electrons can spread out and find enough protons to pair off with (for the most part).
| crmcneill wrote: |
With regards to Stun setting, I prefer to go with the technobabble approach and assume that the tech is above and beyond what we currently understand. I think a Stun blast is a broad spectrum EM burst that disrupts the electrical impulses in the target's nervous system. The problem here is that, if an EM blast operates in a broad enough spectrum to affect all known organic lifeforms, and EM is also lethal against droids and other electronics, then the EM blast from a blaster set on Stun should have a negative effect on droids... |
I agree. Since I think droid hardware varies as much as organics do, and since a stun bolt is not designed to work with droids, you can't always tell ahead of time exactly what's going to happen to a droid when you stun it.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | What weapons were you thinking of? |
Jawa Ionization Gun "affects droids only" Crackens' Rebel Field Guide p 73, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20
Ion Gun Pistol/Rifle "An ion gun’s blast has no effect on organic targets, unless such targets have cybernetic replacements." d20 Core Rulebook p 137
Droid Disabler "4D ionization damage" Galladinium’s Fantastic Technology p 77, Lord of the Expanse – Sector Guide p 45, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20
DEMP Gun "Personal anti-droid electromagnetic pulse weapon" Contains 3 settings. Imperial Sourcebook p 122-123, Arms and Equipment Guide p 20-21
DEMP Gun 2 "Game Notes: Settings 1-3 affect droids only, while setting 4 affects both living beings and droids." Contains one extra setting, setting #4, which affects living beings, is only included in the DEMP Gun 2 and it does 2D less damage to living beings than it does to droids.
DEMP Carbine has the same three settings as the basic DEMP Gun.
Mandroxan Droid Disabler "Anti-droid weapon" and "When hit, droids suffer a -1D to skill and attribute rolls for the next three rounds of the target is stunned; otherwise, the droid is rendered “unconscious” as per the “Stun Damage” rules. While no permanent damage is done, a diagnostic overhaul and power-up will be required to reactivate the droid." Galaxy Guide 11: Criminal Organizations p 83-84, Gundark’s Fantastic Technology p107-108 |
Nice listing bren.. that to me cinches it, that ions only affect droids while stun only affects living beings.. well for character through walker scale.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Nice listing bren.. that to me cinches it, that ions only affect droids while stun only affects living beings.. well for character through walker scale. |
Thanks. I would still say mostly, since the DEMP Gun 2 specifically has an additional high power setting that does some damage to living beings. But overall, I think the intent was for ionization weapons at character scale to be the droid version of a stun weapon. And for them not to affect living beings. And since I view Star Wars as space opera, I am more concerned with in-game consistency that any rationalization with real world physics. |
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