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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Considering that hyperspace routes are not straight lines, any hyperspace coordinates would be some variation on "From Tatooine, travel 13.685 lightyears on bearing 32.619 by 187.75, then travel 87.223 lightyears on bearing..." etc, etc. All but the shortest hyperspace courses are non-linear to avoid known obstacles, unless some guy on a blind jump got really, really lucky. The way I figure, there would be two ways to plot a new course (well, three, but the third is more by accident than intent).
1). A dedicated scout ship, equipped to stay in space for anything up to a year, makes a nano-jump, a fraction of a lightyear in length in the direction of a desired or predicted hyperspace route. Once the micro-jump is complete, the scout ship stays in realspace long enough to get a fix on its location and scan for obvious obstacles to hyperspace travel, then makes another micro-jump. The process is repeated over and over until the scouts either give up or find a way through to where they are headed.
2). A Force sensitive with Instinctive Astrogation makes a good roll and plots a course that shaves several hours off of the time of an existing route. As an added bonus, because the new route is unknown, it will be next to impossible for the Imperial Navy to intercept them with an Interdictor, unless they guess right and are waiting for them at the target system. The problem here is that the Jedi's alternate route is based on instinctive guidance of the Force, with no knowledge of how close they may have skimmed to any hyperspace obstacles en route. A route plotted with Instinctive Astrogation could stay safe for centuries or be lethal a day later. I equate Instinctive Astrogation to the hyperspace navigators' abilities in the Dune series, in that the ability only answers the question "What is a safe course if I jump right now?" not "What course should I take that will be a safe route for centuries to come?"
3). Not really a planned mode, but a ship suffering a hyperspace malfunction (or desperately trying to escape from the Imperial Fleet) makes a blind jump from Point A to Point B and somehow survives. Of course, because it was a blind jump, as with Option 2, they have no knowledge of potential hazards that they may have unknowingly just missed while in hyperspace.
Between the three, #1 is really the only safe way to plot a long-term route. Of course, it takes time and perseverance, and money, of course. In many ways, the logistics of pathfinding a new hyperspace route would be very similar to that of scouting a new planet (see GG8). Some scouts would be independent, working on a limited budget, but seeing a greater cut of the profits if they succeed. Others would be backed by corporations or governments, meaning they have regular pay and stronger financial backing, but are less likely to see a big cut of the profits that their efforts produce.
Ultimately, IMO, the task of deliberately scouting a new hyperspace route should be tedious and time consuming, much like how the scouts of the American frontier located trails through the Rocky Mountains while headed west: lots of guesswork and trial & error and unknown dangers. However, it does make a great background for an encounter, if scouts make a micro-jump and discover a pirate base or a secret military installation, or even a mass of giant space monsters that eat starships. It could even make a good campaign; a group of scouts out on a pathfinding mission who overcome 3-4 session length encounters and come out on the other end of the trip with a brand new hyperspace route that cuts hours or days off existing travel times.
There are also political factors to consider. For instance, an existing shipping company or local government may feel threatened by an alternate route, as it would bypass spaceport facilities owned by the company that turn a tidy profit, and will go out of their way to hinder any new routes (up to and including killing people who have scouted them, if the company is shady enough). The Empire could be opposed to the plotting of new routes for any number of reasons (such as the aforementioned secret base), or even to limit travel to known corridors within a sector to ease policing of said routes.
The Alliance, on the other hand, would look on alternate, unknown hyperspace routes as a goldmine, as they would allow Alliance ships safe transit over unknown routes, avoiding Imperial patrols and interdiction points. They wouldn't be able to pay well for them, but Alliance personnel are rarely motivated by the financial rewards.
There is a lot of potential for a campaign built around plotting a new hyperspace routes, as it can tie in with various instant adventures that involve encountering unknown worlds and the like, but the actual scouting of the new route should most definitely be kept as part of the backdrop. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Fallon Kell wrote: | garhkal wrote: | I have always wondered if there was any guide to actually 'path finding' new hyperspace routes.. like ave times, diff etc. OR what rewards you get for doing so... |
Such as what is the value of a "patent" on a new hyperroute? |
That, along with things such as
1) how difficult it is
2) mishaps
3) where/when/how to register it
4) time _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | That, along with things such as
1) how difficult it is
2) mishaps
3) where/when/how to register it
4) time |
Plus, information is something you can only sell once. It's not like there is a toll booth set up on either end of the new hyperspace route collecting fees. Once someone has the coordinates for the hyperspace route, its a done deal. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: | garhkal wrote: | That, along with things such as
1) how difficult it is
2) mishaps
3) where/when/how to register it
4) time |
Plus, information is something you can only sell once. It's not like there is a toll booth set up on either end of the new hyperspace route collecting fees. Once someone has the coordinates for the hyperspace route, its a done deal. |
Well, you could charge royalties on sales of the coordinates to individuals, but yeah. It's not a gift that keeps on giving. _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Or sell it to more than one group. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Mikael Hasselstein Line Captain


Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 810 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | 1. Generating a list of systems. The index in the Essential Atlas is some 4400 systems/planets long, but, to my knowledge, is not available in such an electronic format as can be copied and pasted into a database or spreadsheet. I did pull a list from the .pdf file available here. But the squares seem to be a little off from what we know elsewhere (the Essential Atlas & Wookieepedia). It is nevertheless a list of 687 systems/planets, which is considerable. |
Okay, I've converted the updated list that Krapou mentioned into an excel file.
Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | 2. Developing at least a conceptual of the to-be-modeled mechanics of Astrogation. What are the different factors involved?
I think there are several factors:
1. Distance by way of hyperroutes
2. Type of hyperroute(s) traveled (which ZzaphodD already mentioned)
3. Hyperdrive class of the starship in question (no-brainer)
4. level of success of the Astrogation and/or the availability of superior nav-computers databases, such as the Wookiee maps. |
So, this would be the next stage. For my part, I am of the opinion that the physical distance between two points means a great deal less for travel time than how well mapped (i.e. traveled) a hyperroute is. But opinions may differ.
ZzaphodD suggested the following scheme as multipliers for the base time it would take.
ZzaphodD wrote: | Super Route: V. Easy. Travel time x1
Galactic Route: V-Easy to Easy. Travel time x1,5
Major Route: Easy to Moderate. Travel time x 2
Minor Route: Difficult to V.Difficult. Travel time x4 |
I disagree with assigning target numbers to particular routes, because I think that there should be only one astrogation roll for the entire trip from one place to another. Hyperroutes, on the other hand, connect two separate places, but you might need to travel through one or more places and on more than one type of route to get to your destination.
For example, in order to get to Alderaan from Tatooine, you would have to first go from Tatooine to Arkanis on the Triellust Trade Route, and then hook a right coreward on the Correllian Run. At Denon, you would have to change again to get on the Hydian Way, which will get you to Brentaal, from where you can get onto the Commenor Run out to Alderaan. Now, perhaps you know some local routes nearby Alderaan so that you don't have to go all the way to Brentaal, but those would certainly be a different type of hyperroute than the Corellian Run or the Hydian way.
Now, I have NO idea why they say that it's quicker to get to Alderaan from Tatooine than it is from Coruscant. Perhaps someone can explain that to me. |
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ZzaphodD Rear Admiral


Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | I disagree with assigning target numbers to particular routes, because I think that there should be only one astrogation roll for the entire trip from one place to another. Hyperroutes, on the other hand, connect two separate places, but you might need to travel through one or more places and on more than one type of route to get to your destination. |
Assign different target numbers to different routes, but when rolling for asterogation just use the most difficult target numbers. If youre going on the Hydian and then switch to the Corellian Run then the Hydian is not the problem. _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Mikael Hasselstein Line Captain


Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 810 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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ZzaphodD wrote: | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | I disagree with assigning target numbers to particular routes, because I think that there should be only one astrogation roll for the entire trip from one place to another. Hyperroutes, on the other hand, connect two separate places, but you might need to travel through one or more places and on more than one type of route to get to your destination. |
Assign different target numbers to different routes, but when rolling for asterogation just use the most difficult target numbers. If youre going on the Hydian and then switch to the Corellian Run then the Hydian is not the problem. |
That's certainly one approach - the 'weakest link' approach, we could call it - but it seems to me that an attempt at astrogating will also be more difficult the more steps it has to take - call it the 'number of links' approach.
The most detail-oriented way of figuring out a target number would take both into account. The target number would not necessarily correlate to the travel time. |
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Mikael Hasselstein Line Captain


Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 810 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Okay, a day of unnatural obsession with this question later:
I've figured out how to work with a Network Analysis program to take a list of weighted dyads (think: hyperspace routes that link two systems with no other systems in between and a figure measuring its length, say, in hours), and convert it into a matrix of shortest paths between two points that are linked by one or more such dyads.
This means that I'm an important step closer to figuring out how to make a grand hyperroute matrix based on fairly consistent principles. That means that I need to think about the turning the network data into a usable web interface. That will be awesome when playing with a laptop or a tablet.
However, I would like some help in thinking about how this works. I've come to the conclusion that 'hours of travel' should be the fundamental attribute of any hyperspace route. This matches what WEG has already done. I also think that (changing my opinion from earlier) that 'hours of travel' should be in direct proportion to difficulty of astrogation.
I know that we might envision where that relationship should not hold, but it would make the prospect of using network data fundamentally more difficult. If we keep them proportional, then I think I can create an engine that gives both a time-traveled figure as well as a target number.
In most cases, the target number and the time-traveled will increase depending on how many hyperspace jumps between systems you're planning. If you want an easier roll, you need to plot a shorter trip. You can always re-astrogate once you're there and keep on trucking.
Any comments? |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Any comments? |
Mostly that you lost me at dyad, but I'm very interested in seeing your end product. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein Line Captain


Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 810 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Any comments? |
Mostly that you lost me at dyad, but I'm very interested in seeing your end product. |
Oh, oops. Sorry, I have a rudimentary understanding of social network analysis. If I had more it would probably be easier for me to explain.
What I am trying to do is make something like what is available on The Astrogation Site, except more encompassing and based on an understanding of the hyperlanes system as a network.
That network, however, is not very dense. There is not a direct hyperroute between every single system in the galaxy. In fact, there are relatively few connections. Most systems only directly connect to one or two other systems. For example, there simply is not a charted hyperroute between Tatooine and Dagobah, because only Luke Skywalker really bothers to travel from Tatooine to Dagobah. Instead of traveling between the two systems directly, Luke has to go from Tattooine to Arkanis on the Triellus Trade Route, then to Denon on the Corellian Run. In Denon, which also sits on the Hydian Way, he takes that to Eriadu. In Eriadu, he can get on the Rimma Trade Route which passes not far from Dagobah.
So, when I say 'dyad', I mean two systems that are directly connected by a hyperspace route. From a list of dayds, I can use a network analysis program to plot the shortest route through the network of of hyperroutes, and create a matrix of origins and destinations, and the length of time it takes to go from one system to another.
The rub is generating the list of dyads. Still, there are some maps in the RPG and EU literature. The RPG material (e.g. Elrood Sector) has sector maps with distances marked out in travel times at Hyperdrive x1.
Make any more sense? |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Make any more sense? |
Yes, thank you.
Perhaps you should consider making multiple charts; one for the galaxy, with Astrogation times from Sector to Sector (especially in the case where a detailed sector map is available), and then separate charts for Astrogation times inside the Sector itself, sort of like having a state map to navigate the freeway system, then using a city map to find the specific street you are headed to. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein Line Captain


Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 810 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: | Perhaps you should consider making multiple charts; one for the galaxy, with Astrogation times from Sector to Sector (especially in the case where a detailed sector map is available), and then separate charts for Astrogation times inside the Sector itself, sort of like having a state map to navigate the freeway system, then using a city map to find the specific street you are headed to. |
That is possible, but I'm not sure what we gain by doing that. I don't think I will have a limit to the amount of data I can plug into the network.
Of course, it is the case that we have existing maps for only a few sectors, and only a few of those have travel times. Below is the list of the systems that I've found maps for:
Kathol (Rigt + Outback)
Elrood
Five Veils Route/Llanic Spice Run
Rimma Trade Route
Tapani Sector
The Ringali Shell
Triellust Trade Route with Sanrafsix Corridor
Gree Enclave
The Twin Stars of Kira
Hoth and the Greater Javin (without travel times)
Moddell Sector (without travel times)
Other than those sectors, I will be able to draw the larger trade routs from the Essential Atlas maps, which also include Hutt Space and the Arkanis Sector.
If you have/know of any others, I'd be happy to learn about them.
Right now I have assembled a working model of the Kathol sector. I'm going to use that to build a web-engine that will allow you to choose two points and have the website tell you the travel time along the shortest route. Once I have that, I will start compiling the dataset.
Of course, if someone wanted to help assemble the data, that would be peachy! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | If you have/know of any others, I'd be happy to learn about them. |
None others that I am aware of. I suggested it merely as an option for saving space on the spreadsheet you are suggesting, in that, given known hyperspace travel times within a sector, it would simplify your galaxy wide list by simply listing travel times to or from a given sector, rather than listing travel times to and from each and every planet listed on the sector map. The characters could then just plot a jump to some central point in the sector, and once that point is reached, they can then just do the additional jump to the specific location in the sector itself. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think travel from Sector to Sector will work. That isn't how the hyperspace routes are laid out. They are mapped like a network diagram seeming to go from planet to planet crossing sectors as needed. Some sectors have multiple routes, but also have planets not on a main route. Other sectors don't appear to have any main routes at all.
Although the main hyperspace routes are mapped like a network diagram, it is not clear that in traveling along a route with say 5 systems, that one necessarily travels from A-B-C-D-E to get from A to E. It often seems in the novels and films that a course can be plotted from A-E directly. |
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