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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16404
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | So what's the minimum for Jedi Lore? Willpower? Any restrictions of dsp? |
I think it should be based on the Force skills. I've always gotten the impression that a person's power in the Force is relatively static, and their limits are purely internal. A person who is increasing their dice in the Force skills is not increasing their power level; they are increasing their own understanding of a power that is already theirs.
Examples from ESB:
Luke: "Master, moving stones around is one thing. This is...totally different"
Yoda: "No! No different! Only different in your mind."
[Skip Ahead]
Yoda TK's Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp.
Luke: (Shocked) "I don't believe it."
Yoda: "That is why you fail."
IMO, the progression through ranks among the Jedi should be based on their understanding of the Force, as represented by their Force skill level. However, there are additional factors. In the RotS novel, Obi-wan makes the point that while Anakin is powerful enough to be a Master, he lacks the self-control and "Jedi reserve" to be elevated to that rank (i.e. he has the power of a master, but cannot behave or comport himself as a master). I think the ranks should be based on an average rating of all three Force skills and Willpower (thought the exact form this should take is not clear to me at the moment).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I say you are a padawan from 0d till you hit around 5d in all 3 skills. 5-9d is knight area.. and 9d and above is master.. |
Seems about right. I usually figure 5D average across the 3 abilities is the minimum for a knight. On top of that would be a requirement to face the Dark in some sort of challenge or quest. A master would need higher skills, possibly some demonstration of an ability to teach, and - in the prequels period - recognition of one's skill by one's peers and acceptance by the Jedi council. I'm not so hard and fast on the skills for masters, but it seems about 10D average seems right. |
Yay!! My character is a Jedi Knight!
(My temper tantrum is over btw) |
Yoda turns in his grave (or on his spiritual plane or whatever), Zookie a Jedi Knight! 
Id put that at 6D minimum at two skills and 5D in the third as minimum. Not based on movies or something, just that at 6D you will start to pass difficult skill checks frequently. |
With my friendly 2D bonus points I make the 6D requirement in all three skills! 
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, 'friendly' dark side bonuses shurely counts towards the 'knight level'..
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Maybe a sith knight 
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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I don't really like a hard rule on what is required for a number of reasons. But I think the key things are ability in the force and acceptance by one's peers and superiors; where superiors are whomever makes those promotion decisions. So in the prequels it is the Jedi Counsel; in the original trilogy it's Yoda (or whatever Jedi Master a PC can come across); and in the post Endor timeframe it is Luke and/or whatever structure exists for teaching Jedi.*
For force skills what I see for a knight is around 5D average for the three force skills. (Note that this would allow someone like Corran Horn to qualify with little or no alter by having a higher control and sense to make up.)
For acceptance by one's peers it is demostrated ability in the force, LS combat, Jedi Lore, diplomacy, comportment (which is partly willpower and partly just how the character behaves in general), possibly knowledge or scholarship (since in the prequels the Jedi seem to value that) and maybe some element of politics (which could potentially be abstracted to persuade, but might in a prequel setting be actual politicing amongst the Jedi Order and the Council.
One other thing to remember is that in-game neither PCs nor NPCs can tell exactly what skill level anyone is. That is one thing in favor of Z's comment about having a skill of 6D because then a Jedi can reliably and repeatedly succeed at force powers. One possiblity is that rather than having a set force ability, the PC could have to demonstrate several force powers in a test setting. Then if the PC rolls well they might qualify at a lower than average level and if they roll poorly they might need a higher than average skill to qualify.
* Obviously the GM may have created his/her own structure for making such promotion decisions based on the events of the campaign and depending on what era play occurs in. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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In game it might not be so important to the exact number of dice but its good to have a general idea of the requested skills and such. Just like you have 
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Do you actually have trials and such for going from a padawan to knight?
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Do you actually have trials and such for going from a padawan to knight? |
Well, we are in the Rebellion period, so nothing official like what you might see in the prequels, but yes. The two characters who have advanced to Jedi Knight have each had one or more trials of facing the Dark prior to being able to consider themselves Jedi Knights. Typically that is an adventure customized to the character that requires the PC to face a great fear or anger and successfully confront it.
One Jedi (Tora Jesek) had to face Inquisitor Tremayne. Tremayne was hunting her after killing her master many years ago (shortly after Tremayne turned to the Dark Side). Prior to that Tremayne and Tora had been students together and were romantically interested in each other. Tremayne became a bit obsessed with Tora, causing much hardship for many people around her, who he used to draw her to him, much like Vader had Han and Chewie tortured on Bespin to draw Luke. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:56 am Post subject: |
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How did she succeed??
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | How did she succeed?? |
Short Version: She had to face her fear and her anger and overcome both without succumbing to the Dark Side.
Longer Version: As the end of a multipart scenario "Love is a Battlefield," she had to got to Kujac the Hutt's palace where the people close to her that Tremayne had kidnapped were being held prisoner (and tortured) to rescue them.
Before the final confrontation with Tremayne, she did not know that her fellow student and former boyfriend, Ton Faellon, was actually Inquisitor Tremayne, though she recognized Tremanyne as the Dark Jedi who had killed her master many years ago. Also before the confrontation, she met a kindly old man name Jarno who somehow seemed familiar and reminded Tora of another father-figure friend of hers. Just before the rescue started he confessed to the players that he was Tremayne's father. Unbeknowst to the players he separately went to Kujac's Palace in an attempt to stop his son, by shooting him. The PCs negotiate with Kujac the Hutt (think the scene in RotJ when Luke appears before Jabba).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Cutaway: The Assassin
FADE IN TO A DIMLY LIT BALCONY: We see a figure in dark loose clothes unpacking and assembling an elaborate scoped blaster rifle. The assassin sets up next to an ornately carved railing. We see him checking the power pack, sighting his rifle, noting the angles of fire, etc.
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<The players get this cutaway, but have no idea who this is or what it is about. It just raised their nervousness and the general level of tension.>
The rescue party goes to Kujac's Palace. After the players have interacted with Kujac, Tremayne is admitted to the hall accompanied by a squad of stormtroopers. Tremayne’s Srrors’tok retainer Ahnjai Rahmma will be elsewhere. (Torturing the other prisoners? Or watching in hiding to protect Tremayne?) Tremayne will demand that Kujac give the players to him.
“Hoo, hoo, hoo! Tremayne, you know I never give anyone anything. What are they worth to you?”
“Keep the others. I only want her.” Pointing to Tora.
“And what about these others.” Kujac press a control on his dais and the false floor slides back uncovering the grates leading to the Pits.
GM notes: Allow the players to make dramatic statements or challenges. If they have not already done so, characters may want to sneak off to rescue the prisoners.
Seeing his authority challenged, Tremayne begins to lose his temper. “Kujac you would be unwise to anger me.” Tremayne gestures towards Kujac as if to throttle him.
Kujac’s eyes bug out and he looks like he can’t breathe. Then he laughs. “Hoo, hoo. Your Jedi tricks will do you no good against me, Tremayne.”
“Kujac, I do not know why I put up with you. If my father were here, this would just…break…his…heart!” As he speaks the last few words Tremayne clenches his left hand into a claw. On the last word a clatter is heard as a blaster rifle falls from one of the balconies down into the hall.*
Kujac orders his guards to search the balcony and they find the body of Jarno Faellon. Kujac will ask his physician (one of those among his court) what killed him. The physician will announce, “Heart attack, Mighty Kujac!”
It is at this moment the Tora realizes
(1) Jarno is Jarno Falleon the father of her old flame and fellow padawan, Ton Falleon.
(2) Tremayne is Ton Falleon.
(3) Tremayne just killed his own father to make a point.
She must now lead the rescue to free the prisoners by facing Tremayne without giving in to the Dark Side despite the risk to Darien, her new romantic interest, (or the prisoners). She succeeded, and in the encounter Tremayne was driven off, being maimed in the process (in our campaign that's where he lost his arm).**
For Tora a recurring personal issue was her inability to allow others (especially non-Jedi and those she was close to) to be in mortal peril. Previously this flaw had already earned her a DSP when out of fear, she called on the Dark Side to save Darien. So she had to master her fear for her loved ones and the helpless bystanders along with her rage at Tremayne for a multitude of evil acts.
* I saw this idea for Tremayne's dad on the old Star Wars discussion forum back in the 1990's.
** This scenario arc actually had a 11 theme songs - one for each episode and for many of the key scenes in the episodes. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Nice... and that she seemed to willingly take the DSP rather than let others suffer showed her self sacrifice..
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Nice... and that she seemed to willingly take the DSP rather than let others suffer showed her self sacrifice.. |
A true Jedi!
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:52 am Post subject: |
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Agreed..
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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So... How do you become a Jedi knight without the Jedi council?
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | So... How do you become a Jedi knight without the Jedi council? |
In our house campaign it was a combination of four things:
1) You have force skills in the right ball park (for use around 5D average).
2) You have successfully passed at least one challenge of confronting the Dark that tests your moral fitness to be a Jedi. A previous post described one such challenge.
3) Your master (if you have one) agrees that you qualify as a knight.
4) You feel ready. This is a combination of the player feeling OK with his/her character becoming a knight and the GM signaling to the PC that he/she "feels" ready via a force vision or just a feeling that the character has, perhaps after succeeding at their latest challenge. Something along the lines of "you have finally defeated Shadow and returned him to the light. Now, at last you feel like you are truly a Jedi Knight." |
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