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Theodrim
Lieutenant
Joined: 18 May 2014
Posts: 78
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 Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Theodrim wrote: | | I usually just narrate it out (as I do any combat scene involving capital ships), since something like that is so complex and subject to circumstance it's nigh impossible to adjudicate by rules. |
For most campaigns, this is the way to go. However, running a pirate or privateer campaign with a capital ship (such as with the Far Orbit Project), a firmer rule would not be amiss. |
I don't disagree per se, but how easy it is to adjudicate very..very...quickly becomes a problem.
Case in point, take into consideration damage that would be relatively minor from a mechanical or functional standpoint, but catastrophic in terms of actual or potential damage to crew. Damage or destruction of inertial dampeners, gravity generators, reactor shielding, internal ray or particle shielding (opposed to hull shielding), bulkheads or hull, environmental systems, et cetera. What happens when a lucky proton torpedo or turbolaser shot finds its way into whatever mechanism a Star Destroyer uses to sink heat from its main reactor? you're going to end up with thousands of People McNuggets is what, what with its reactor being a miniature star and all.
The problem you'll quickly find is something to which I jokingly refer elsewhere as the "tank problem" -- armored military vehicles are sturdy, people are not, and its easier to kill a crew than destroy a vehicle. That, in turn, gets messy (literally) fast, and thematically takes a game in a much darker direction -- especially when players catch on and start using this to their advantage. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16391
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Theodrim wrote: | | I don't disagree per se, but how easy it is to adjudicate very..very...quickly becomes a problem. |
I agree. Having a more complicated system after the fact for calculating crew casualties is okay because it is after the battle, but any system for representing crew casualties during battle needs to be simple and easily applied. That was part of why I suggested dice penalties to the crew skills before; taking a dice penalty on actions is something D6 players already know to work with.
| Quote: | | The problem you'll quickly find is something to which I jokingly refer elsewhere as the "tank problem" -- armored military vehicles are sturdy, people are not, and its easier to kill a crew than destroy a vehicle. That, in turn, gets messy (literally) fast, and thematically takes a game in a much darker direction -- especially when players catch on and start using this to their advantage. |
Battlefleet Gothic's crew-based hit point rule mentioned something similar, that it was possible for a ship to take total crew casualties and be lifeless wreck, but still be salvageable. As far as the tank problem, it is already part of the RAW, under the Passenger damage table, which almost never gets mentioned. The official rule is that it is applied at GM discretion, but that usually just means it gets ignored by a GM who already has a lot to do. If a ship takes Severe Damage, the crew is supposed to take 6D Character Scale damage. That works fine for a starfighter or space transport with a small crew, but with capital ships, you can't roll to resolve damage against 1,000+ crewmen one at a time. Therefore, something else is needed.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14316
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Theodrim wrote: |
The problem you'll quickly find is something to which I jokingly refer elsewhere as the "tank problem" -- armored military vehicles are sturdy, people are not, and its easier to kill a crew than destroy a vehicle. That, in turn, gets messy (literally) fast, and thematically takes a game in a much darker direction -- especially when players catch on and start using this to their advantage. |
Or themselves fall victim to it.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16391
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:55 am Post subject: |
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So, I've been thinking about this one off and on, and it occurs to me that we already have a system in the RAW to represent the effects of crew casualties in combat. When a character takes damage, they suffer a penalty to all skill rolls until they are healed. So, why not do the same for capital ships as a quick and easy representation of the effects of crew casualties?
A couple things I'm considering...1). Light Damage would result in a skill penalty specifically to the skill of use for the damaged area, such as Gunnery for a damaged weapon, or Piloting for damage engines or Maneuverability. Heavy or Severe Damage would be a blanket skill penalty across the board.
2). All penalties would decrease by 1D after the first round, representing crew who were knocked off their feet or otherwise momentarily unable to perform their duties, but who got up and went back to work.
Thoughts?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | So, I've been thinking about this one off and on, and it occurs to me that we already have a system in the RAW to represent the effects of crew casualties in combat. When a character takes damage, they suffer a penalty to all skill rolls until they are healed. So, why not do the same for capital ships as a quick and easy representation of the effects of crew casualties?
A couple things I'm considering...1). Light Damage would result in a skill penalty specifically to the skill of use for the damaged area, such as Gunnery for a damaged weapon, or Piloting for damage engines or Maneuverability. Heavy or Severe Damage would be a blanket skill penalty across the board.
2). All penalties would decrease by 1D after the first round, representing crew who were knocked off their feet or otherwise momentarily unable to perform their duties, but who got up and went back to work.
Thoughts? |
That makes sense.
Although after thinking about crew damage, good thing they do not need to roll to use an escape pod. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14316
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Not bad, though recovering in 1 round is a little quick. How's about make it variable, say 1d+1 rounds.. representing the time it takes for the ships medics to get to that spot to start treating people.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16391
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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True. The flip side, however, is that any attempt at running capital ship combat would need to be kept just as fast paced as starfighter-scale combat, if only to keep it interesting...
EDIT: As far as medics being able to treat people, what I was thinking is that the 1 round penalty refers to people who were knocked off their feet or otherwise shaken, but not so wounded as to require medical attention. Those people would be back on station within a round or two at most.
Then, after the battle is over, another 1D of penalty rolls off, representing those members of the crew who received medical treatment and are released, or crew who were trapped in damaged sections and such.
Any additional penalty is permanent (representing crew who were killed or require long-term care) unless and until the ship receives replacement crew to bring the ship's company back up to full strength.
That permanent penalty value could then be applied mathematically against the ship's given crew rating to generate casualties, as well as an increased difficulty modifier for all actions...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | True. The flip side, however, is that any attempt at running capital ship combat would need to be kept just as fast paced as starfighter-scale combat, if only to keep it interesting... |
The joy of balancing realism with fun. I would skip realism in star wars as its setting is to be cinematic. The less rolls you need the better, the less math the better. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16391
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Savar wrote: | | The joy of balancing realism with fun. I would skip realism in star wars as its setting is to be cinematic. The less rolls you need the better, the less math the better. |
Agreed. In the end, I'm thinking a wink-and-nod "combat rounds between capital ships are somewhat longer than other combat rounds" would be best.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Droids would be in the char damage list? That could effect star destroyers losing all the MSE-6. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16391
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not going to go into the details of who does or does not get destroyed when a capital ship takes damage, as WEG stats don't provide sufficient detail to generate those numbers. If others wish to take this idea and use it to generate exact numbers as to how many of the ship's MSE-6 droids were destroyed in the battle, they clearly have way too much time on their hands, but it is their time to spend as they wish. Speaking for myself, I'm more interested in determining how starship damage affects the crew as a whole, specifically in that crew's ability to function in combat as an integral component of the ship itself.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Ning Leihrec
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I'll try these out in my campaign and let you know how they play. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16391
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Cool. If you're running a capital ship combat campaign, I've thrown out some other ideas along the way that might interest you.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Ning Leihrec
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| I noticed. Your cap ship revisions are on point. The starfighter scale weapons were way underpowered before. Didn't you post something about capital ship tactics too? My searches aren't pulling it up, but I thought I glimpsed that some time ago... |
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Ning Leihrec
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Scratch that. Just found it... A post by Hasselstein you contributed to. |
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