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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14382
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Listed below are all capital scale ships with an atmospheric rating giving ship type, atmospheric rating.
NOT including bulk freighters (many of which do have atmospheric ratings), here is a list of all cap ships which do.
Ugor battle wagon
Etti lighter
Corellian Star shuttle
CEC Consular-class space cruiser
Loronar MOD-17 container freighter
Sorosuub corp Ferry boat liner
Elliall-class cargo barge
Botajef AA-9 freight liner
Leonore luxury liner C-3
Kuat drive yards Star steeder
Sith gunship
Sith personnel carrier
Mere cruiser
Republic Sienar systems Marauder-class corvette
Corellian Engineering Corp. CR20 Light Cruiser
Santhe/Sienar Fleet Technologies Lianna-class Corvette
Aramand System Cruiser III
Sienar Fleet Systems IR-3F
KDY nebulon-B frigate
Corellian Corvette
Elrood star yards LTD Prosperity-class customs cruiser
KDY Class C frigate
Corellian gunship
Dornean Braha’ket Fleetworks Conglomerate Braha’tok-class Gunship
Yevethan Armadia-class Thrustship
Haor Chall Engineering C-9979 landing craft
Modified Hoersch-Kessel Drive, Inc., Lucrehulk-class LH-1740 modular control core is not listed as having an atmospheric speed but we saw them lifting off in ATOC.
Techno union Hardcell-class starship
Free Dac Volunteers/Pammant Docks Providence-class carrier/destroyer
Rothana heavy engineering Acclamator-class military transport
KDY Venator-class star destroyer
KDY armed cargo barge
Loronar X-Q1 patrol craft
Loronar X-Q2 system patrol cruiser
Sienar fleet systems IPV-1 patrol cruiser
Damorian manufacturing corp Tartan cruiser
Sienar Fleet Systems’ Bayonet-class Cruiser
Rendili Star Drive’s Victory I
Sienar Fleet Systems IPV/h
Tagge Industries Shipyards Ltd. Modular Task force Cruiser
Imperial Adz-class patrol destroyer
Imperial Patrol frigate
Silviut Corporation Vibre-class Assault Cruiser
Mon Calamari Evacuation cruiser (modified MC-80)
Republic Engineering Corp. Agave-class Picket Ship
Republic Engineering Corporation/ SoroSuub Solo-class Combat Freighter
KDY Corona-class frigate
Republic engineering corp Warrior-class gunship
Republic Engineering Corp. Sacheen-class Escort
Loronar Belarus-class Medium Cruiser
Republic Engineering Corporation Defender-class Assault Carrier
Republic Engineering Corporation Endurance-class Fleet Carrier
Republic Engineering Corporation Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser
Rendili StarDrive Republic-class Star Destroyer
Republic Engineering Corporation Defender star destroyer
That is all the separatist, Old republic, imperial, new republic and rebellion era craft. Vong ships not included.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay kinda proves my point. Most are kinda bulky and not the sort of thing designed to get into chases and dogfights in an atmosphere. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14382
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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True, but that there is quite a lot of cap ships with atmospheric capability should still put a scare into PC groups!
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:08 am Post subject: Re: 2E Atmospheric Speeds |
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| atgxtg wrote: | In an atmosphere, the atmospheric drag is the major factor that limits vehicle speed. If everything else is equal then atmospheric speed should increase at the square root of the Thrust-to-Mass ratio (i.e. Space Speed). So a ship that was 3 times as fast as another in space should be about 1.73 times as fast in an atmosphere.
Now, usually everything else isn't equal. Things like streamlining and lift provided by the vehicle can affect it's speed, to name just a couple of factors. Add in the fact that the speeds in the RAW appear to be rounded off, and the 1.625 factor is reasonable.
If you use KPH= (square root of SPACE)*317+177 and round off to the nearest increment of 50 you get:
1 = 175; 500kmh
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which matches up with the RAW, with the sole exception of SPACE 5. |
Per R&E p.129, Space 1 is Move 210; 600kmh. So Space 5 is not the sole exception. Space 1 on this chart also doesn't match up with RAW.
| Quote: | If you use KPH= (square root of SPACE)*317+177 and round off to the nearest increment of 50 you get:
1 = 175; 500kmh | 172; 494 kmh
2 = 225; 650kmh | 217; 625 kmh
3 = 260; 750kmh | 252; 726 kmh
4 = 280; 800kmh | 282; 811 kmh
5 = 315; 900kmh | 308; 886 kmh
6 = 330; 950kmh | 331; 953 kmh
7 = 350; 1000kmh | 353; 1016 kmh
8 = 365; 1050kmh | 372; 1074 kmh
9 = 400; 1150kmh | 392; 1128 kmh
10 = 415; 1200kmh | 410; 1179 kmh
11 = 435; 1250kmh | 427; 1228 kmh
12 = 450; 1300kmh | 443; 1275 kmh
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I used this formula to run the space to all-out arithmetic, and then used the actual arithmetic backwards for all-out to move. The actual results are in red above (and only rounded to the nearest whole number).
So this formula did produce results that round to the nearest 50 kmh RAW figure for eight of the 12 space stats. Space 5 (as pointed out) and Space 1 (as not pointed out) were clearly off from RAW, and two others (Space 2 and 12) ended up smack dab in the middle between two 50s, so the only way they round to RAW is by the arbitrary "round up" standard. With a 'round to the nearest 50' standard being so broad, a 66% success rate isn't really that impressive.
As pointed out in the OP, the moves in RAW are all over the place, with a gap of 15, 20, or 35 in between sequential pairs. The only rounding convention that seem applicable is rounding to the nearest five. Only two out of twelve actually ended up rounding to the nearest five matching RAW (Space 4 and 6).
| Quote: | Not too shabby, right?
I could probably tweak the conversion factor a bit to try and get a better correlation, too. Part of the problem here is that the RAW rounds off the MOVE and KPH scores and it throws off the conversion a bit. |
The chart above is presented as a result of the formula nearly matching RAW, but the math doesn't actually work out to results displayed.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Recently, I got curious about the progression of Atmospheric speeds for starships as compared to their Space speeds. While the Space speeds are arithmetic, the Atmosphere speeds are not. What's more, the progression of speed increase is very inconsistent.2 = 225; 650kmh
3 = 260; 750kmh
4 = 280; 800kmh
5 = 295; 850kmh
6 = 330; 950kmh
7 = 350; 1000kmh
8 = 365; 1050kmh
9 = 400; 1150kmh
10 = 415; 1200kmh
11 = 435; 1250kmh
12 = 450; 1300kmh I looked for but couldn't find a ship with a Space of 1 that also had an Atmosphere rating, but this is as complete a list as I could find. For a better idea of the inconsistencies to which I was referring, there is this:2-3 = +35 / +100
3-4 = +20 / +50
4-5 = +15 / +50
5-6 = +35 / +100
6-7 = +20 / +50
7-8 = +15 / +50
8-9 = +35 / +100
9-10 = +15 / +50
10-11 = +20 / +50
11-12 = +15 / +50 The progression begins with an uneven, yet relatively orderly repeating sequence of +35/+100 to +20/+50 to +15/+50, which then repeats once before jumping out of sequence starting at the 9-10 transition. There seems to be no direct connection between the progression of Space values and the increase in Atmosphere values. For example, while an A-Wing (Space 12) is 3 times as fast as a stock YT-1300 (Space 4) in Space, it is only 1.625 times faster in Atmosphere (based on maximum speed in kph; using basic Move values, the difference is ~1.61).
As I said, this is not something I have a solution for, just a general sense that it is wrong. Has anyone else noticed this? If so, did you find a solution that you liked, or was it just not important enough to worry about?
Thoughts? |
Space units are non-defined but intended to be proportional, so their corresponding atmospheric moves should also be proportional. As pointed out, space and move do not have to be the same proportion, but atmosphere moves should still be proportional to each other. The speed chart on R&E p.129 does not have proportional moves.
There almost is a pattern in the progression of move increase amounts: 15 35 20 15 35 20 15 35 15 20 15. To complete the pattern, the last three differences would have been 20 15 35. But even if the pattern continued for the last three, it is still a wonky progression. I notice that 20 and 15 add up to 35. I notice that 35 and 70 are both multiples of 3.5, the average roll of 1D. But does that even help make sense of this chart?
I notice that the chart's move and all-out figures were completely lifted from the bottom portion of the "Speed Code to Move Conversion Chart" on the 1st to 2nd Edition Starship & Vehicles Conversion appendix at the end of Blue Vader 2e. But for that chart, you took the 1e speed code, applied a modifier depending on the type of vehicle it was, and then took the resulting die code (which could be a whole die, or have +1 or +2 pips). Then they married Space stats to the moves for the ship's move in an atmosphere. Looking at the Starship speed code to Space stat chart, the correlation of each die code range is reduced from three (die/+1/+2) to only two Space stats. And the old starship speed codes did not correlate to the modified vehicle speed codes for the conversion.
So it looks like there may have possibly been a thought in the conversion design to maintain the '3-to-2' correspondence inherent in starship speed codes to space stats because the "Speed Code to Move Conversion Chart" has the same wonky progression of 35, 20, 15. [35 = 20+15 and 35 + (20+15) = 70.] But that chart also includes the breakdown of the pattern at the end of it which was maintained in the Space/Move chart. They also very easily could have just came up with the wonky vehicle conversion chart and then repurposed part of it for the Space/Move chart.
The bottom line is, there is no logical reason to justify or maintain that wacky 35-20-15 chart. Also, I see no reason to round off the all-out figure to the nearest 50. So I made a new chart with a logical progression of Moves in the same range as the RAW chart and actual, precise, calculated all-out figures. You can do the rounding in character speech and in-universe marketing because we as humans can look at an exact figure and round as appropriately for the situation. There's just no reason to sacrifice accuracy and check out our brains to make the chart with figures that end in zero to be more appealing to the eye. I also expanded the chart to include a "Speed Code" for mechanics that use it (Tractor Beam rules). My Speed Chart is shared on Star Wars D6 Damage, which I am currently revising.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16428
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm not sure. Any house rule I can think of would require a major re-write of all existing stats, and I try to avoid that. |
Irony
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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