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Dromdarr_Alark Commander


Joined: 07 Apr 2013 Posts: 426 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Kytross wrote: |
There's only three kinds of damage in space: Laser, Ion & Projectile (Kinetic). Shields only protect against lasers. |
Then why do the shields have to be dropped to fire torpedoes? _________________ "I still wouldn't have a roll for it - but that's just how I roll." |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral


Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Dromdarr_Alark wrote: | Kytross wrote: |
There's only three kinds of damage in space: Laser, Ion & Projectile (Kinetic). Shields only protect against lasers. |
Then why do the shields have to be dropped to fire torpedoes? |
They don't. Where did you see that they did?
Also, there are two types of shields, Ray shields (which work against lasers and are the "shields" used in the game) and particle shields which protect against physical objects and are factored into the hull rating. |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral


Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Dromdarr_Alark wrote: |
Where is it written in the rules that proton torpedoes bypass shields? I've never found it and this is a subject of confusion for me. |
It's in there, specifically on page 126 R&E
[quote="2R&R RAW"]
Shields
Starship shields are electronic energy dampers
which help absorb some of the damage from enemy
attacks. Shields come in two main varieties: particle
and energy/ray shields.
Particle shields deflect all sorts of physical objects,
including asteroids, missiles and proton torpedoes.
They are used at all times, except when a ship launches
fighters, missiles or torpedoes (the shields must be
dropped to allow physical objects to pass through
them). When a ship lowers its particle shields, reduce
its hull code by -2D. (A ship which loses its main power
generator also loses its particle shields.)
Energy shields are normally activated only in combat,
and must cover specific fire arcs to be effective in
combat.[/quote] |
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Dromdarr_Alark Commander


Joined: 07 Apr 2013 Posts: 426 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Okay, so particle shields are calculated in the Hull code and protect against torpedoes and other physical objects. They must be lowered to fire torpedoes and release fighters.
That makes sense to me now, thank you.
So is it implied, then, that energy shields only protect against energy weapons? I don't see an explicit statement that they only deflect lasers. Am I missing something?
Sorry for being difficult and digressing. I'm just trying to fully understand this. _________________ "I still wouldn't have a roll for it - but that's just how I roll." |
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Dromdarr_Alark Commander


Joined: 07 Apr 2013 Posts: 426 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:37 am Post subject: |
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I just looked them up on Wookieepedia. Everything makes sense now, thank you. I thought that both particle shields and ray shields were part of the shields code on a ship. _________________ "I still wouldn't have a roll for it - but that's just how I roll." |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral


Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Now that we all agree, it's time to throw a fly into the ointment.
Unfortunately, Lucasfilm doesn't seem to follow those shield rules consistently in the films. A few times ships appear to fire missiles, launch fighters, or sent out astromechs without noticeably lowering the particle shields. |
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cheshire Arbiter-General (Moderator)

Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 4866
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think that consistency is part of the problem, here. We saw a bunch of A-Wings concentrate fire on the shield dome of the Executor (a shield generator that was, albeit, probably pretty stressed as it was since Akbar gave the order to concentrate fire). The generator exploded marvelously.
We've got X-Wing/TIE Fighter games where I've gone toe-to-toe with a Star Destroyer before and slowly whittled it down to nothing with little other fighter support. Which, though satisfying, suggests something broken in the game.
Now WEG tries to develop some sort of consistent scale system that incorporates the feel of the Star Wars we know and love. The X-Wing games were HIGHLY satisfying, but perhaps a bit broken when it came to how it dealt with capital ships. There's no way a single starfighter should have been able to do terribly much to an Imperial Star Destroyer. If I'd taken out a wing of 5 TIEs, it could have easily dispatched 20 to come knocking on my door. And it raises the question, what is the more appropriate feel to a starfighter-based RPG? Should you be able to take down an ISD? How many of you should be needed?
I think the guys at Shooting Womprats may have a point when it takes a higher number fighters than skill dice any commanders would have in Command: Starfighter Squadron. But maybe there's some other unaccounted mechanic we could factor in. Suppose the proton torpedoes were all fire linked? Usually fire linking increased damage an additional 1D. Granted, it would be a bit broken for all the fighters to add an entire die to the damage, but what if, when dealing with fire linked torpedoes we added a +2 to the damage instead of +1? If you ran it as such, it would take about 15 fighters (a little over one squadron) to make a sizable dent.
Furthermore, the Optional Rules on page 30 of the Far Orbit Project, it may make things a bit more doable. You increase the initial damage by +4D (and likewise the difficulty by 4D) to hit a subsection, such as a bridge deflector shield. Combined with the above fire linked method, you could take down the bridge with 9 fighters. Granted, that won't destroy an ISD, but it could easily cripple one. _________________ __________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral


Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2943 Location: Online
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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LOL I just remembered an errata from the R&E. Thermal detonator has a blast radius of 10m (meaning 20m circumference). But it only has a range of 10m (whereas a normal grenade up to 40m). So basically, if you toss a thermal detonator, your going to be on the blast radius. LOL LOL.
I decided to use standard grenade ranges. I might tone it down to 1/2 of the grenade range but not sure as of yet. Since moderate grenade range is 20m, making it 10m. Still possibly putting characters in range.
Thoughts anyone? _________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter |
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Tupteq Commander


Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 285 Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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shootingwomprats wrote: | LOL I just remembered an errata from the R&E. Thermal detonator has a blast radius of 10m (meaning 20m circumference). But it only has a range of 10m (whereas a normal grenade up to 40m). So basically, if you toss a thermal detonator, your going to be on the blast radius. LOL LOL. |
Actually it's not so strange - fragmentation grenades have effective radius of about 40 m and their fragments may travel over 200 m!
Although throwing range of thermal detonator is ridiculous (unless it weights 5 kg or so).
shootingwomprats wrote: | I decided to use standard grenade ranges. I might tone it down to 1/2 of the grenade range but not sure as of yet. Since moderate grenade range is 20m, making it 10m. Still possibly putting characters in range.
Thoughts anyone? |
You asked for that!
Here are my HRs for grenades (and any thrown weapons).
Throwing Ranges
Throwing range depends on the character's strength. Base ranges are described in table below. It's proper for 0.5 kg grenade-like items. If thrown item differs in shape or weight, then modifiers to Strength should be applied (second table).
Code: |
Strength Range
-2D -/1/2
-1D 0-1/2/4
0D 0-2/4/10
1D 1-3/7/20
2D 1-4/10/25
3D 2-6/15/35
4D 2-8/20/45
5D 3-10/25/60
6D 3-12/30/75
7D 4-15/35/90
8D 4-18/50/110
9D 4-20/45/120
10D 4-25/50/150
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Code: |
Condition STR Modifier
Weight below 50g -3D
Weight below 100g -2D
Weight below 200g -1D
>1 kg -1D
> 2 kg -2D
> 4 kg -3D
> 8 kg -4D
Lack of skill -1D
Non aerodynamic -1D or more
Special design +1D or more
Bearing surface +1D or more
Swing* +1D or more
Run-up +1D
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Example: Jurij is a sportsman (STR 4D), he performs a hammer throw (7 kg of durasteel, -3D to range). Hammer design (a ball on a long wire) gives him +2D bonus to range, additionally throw technique (gaining velocity by swift spin) adds +3D bonus to range, but also reduces throwing skill by the same value, so it's not a problem to throw it far, but hitting any target smaller than sports ground is nearly impossible. Finally Jurij uses range for 4D-3D+2D+3D=6D, maximum range of 75m, but his throwing skill is reduced by 3D.
Example: Pushing identical ball (without a wire) is much harder, range is only (4D-3D=1D) about 20m for the strong human.
In case of thermal detonator I'd probably use weight modifier (>1 kg: -1D STR) to reflect it bulkiness compared to ordinary grenades. Average PC (STR 3D) could throw it 25 meters away. |
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vanir Jedi

Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:41 am Post subject: |
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On Pg 113 of the Trilogy Sourcebook it also specifies that only proton torpedos are completely deflected by particle shielding, concussion warheads do damage as normal but proton weapons require the particle shielding to be down or their 'proton-scattering effect' is nullified. |
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vanir Jedi

Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:43 am Post subject: |
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shootingwomprats wrote: | LOL I just remembered an errata from the R&E. Thermal detonator has a blast radius of 10m (meaning 20m circumference). But it only has a range of 10m (whereas a normal grenade up to 40m). So basically, if you toss a thermal detonator, your going to be on the blast radius. LOL LOL.
I decided to use standard grenade ranges. I might tone it down to 1/2 of the grenade range but not sure as of yet. Since moderate grenade range is 20m, making it 10m. Still possibly putting characters in range.
Thoughts anyone? |
Don't carry little nuclear weapons around then decide to set one off and toss it?
Timed fuse. Grenades actually have this problem IRL, they don't work like they do in movies. If they blew when they landed, you'd cop the shrapnel too. You predict, toss and move for cover. (in military actions what you often see, really, often see is the same grenades being tossed back and forth between enemies)
When people are already behind enough cover to cope with shrapnel, like in a trench tossing a grenade into another trench is okay. Then what you can do is pull the pin, wait a few seconds for the fuse to burn down a bit, then toss.
Don't ever do that with a thermal. Is all. |
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vanir Jedi

Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:57 am Post subject: |
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cheshire wrote: | I think that consistency is part of the problem, here. We saw a bunch of A-Wings concentrate fire on the shield dome of the Executor (a shield generator that was, albeit, probably pretty stressed as it was since Akbar gave the order to concentrate fire). The generator exploded marvelously.
We've got X-Wing/TIE Fighter games where I've gone toe-to-toe with a Star Destroyer before and slowly whittled it down to nothing with little other fighter support. Which, though satisfying, suggests something broken in the game.
Now WEG tries to develop some sort of consistent scale system that incorporates the feel of the Star Wars we know and love. The X-Wing games were HIGHLY satisfying, but perhaps a bit broken when it came to how it dealt with capital ships. There's no way a single starfighter should have been able to do terribly much to an Imperial Star Destroyer. If I'd taken out a wing of 5 TIEs, it could have easily dispatched 20 to come knocking on my door. And it raises the question, what is the more appropriate feel to a starfighter-based RPG? Should you be able to take down an ISD? How many of you should be needed?
I think the guys at Shooting Womprats may have a point when it takes a higher number fighters than skill dice any commanders would have in Command: Starfighter Squadron. But maybe there's some other unaccounted mechanic we could factor in. Suppose the proton torpedoes were all fire linked? Usually fire linking increased damage an additional 1D. Granted, it would be a bit broken for all the fighters to add an entire die to the damage, but what if, when dealing with fire linked torpedoes we added a +2 to the damage instead of +1? If you ran it as such, it would take about 15 fighters (a little over one squadron) to make a sizable dent.
Furthermore, the Optional Rules on page 30 of the Far Orbit Project, it may make things a bit more doable. You increase the initial damage by +4D (and likewise the difficulty by 4D) to hit a subsection, such as a bridge deflector shield. Combined with the above fire linked method, you could take down the bridge with 9 fighters. Granted, that won't destroy an ISD, but it could easily cripple one. |
Our gaming group is starfighter heavy, and we found 2e scaling and coordinated actions works just fine out of the box, with a simple house rule of reduced scale on specific systems, like a turbolaser battery on a capital ship is composed of individual starfighter scale emplacements, individual shield generators are starfighter scale structures mounted on a capital scale hull, etc.
The main problem is the shields and hull. If you want to go around vapourising capital ships with combined starfighter action you're out of luck, and getting through or under their shields is a task in itself.
what we did find was 2R&E scaling was cartoonish by comparison, we tried it and everything turned completely ridiculous, a PC vapourised a tank with a blaster pistol ffs. 2e works billions of times more maturely. |
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Kytross Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 808
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:33 am Post subject: |
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cheshire wrote: | I think that consistency is part of the problem, here. We saw a bunch of A-Wings concentrate fire on the shield dome of the Executor (a shield generator that was, albeit, probably pretty stressed as it was since Akbar gave the order to concentrate fire). The generator exploded marvelously.
We've got X-Wing/TIE Fighter games where I've gone toe-to-toe with a Star Destroyer before and slowly whittled it down to nothing with little other fighter support. Which, though satisfying, suggests something broken in the game.
Now WEG tries to develop some sort of consistent scale system that incorporates the feel of the Star Wars we know and love. The X-Wing games were HIGHLY satisfying, but perhaps a bit broken when it came to how it dealt with capital ships. There's no way a single starfighter should have been able to do terribly much to an Imperial Star Destroyer. If I'd taken out a wing of 5 TIEs, it could have easily dispatched 20 to come knocking on my door. And it raises the question, what is the more appropriate feel to a starfighter-based RPG? Should you be able to take down an ISD? How many of you should be needed?
I think the guys at Shooting Womprats may have a point when it takes a higher number fighters than skill dice any commanders would have in Command: Starfighter Squadron. But maybe there's some other unaccounted mechanic we could factor in. Suppose the proton torpedoes were all fire linked? Usually fire linking increased damage an additional 1D. Granted, it would be a bit broken for all the fighters to add an entire die to the damage, but what if, when dealing with fire linked torpedoes we added a +2 to the damage instead of +1? If you ran it as such, it would take about 15 fighters (a little over one squadron) to make a sizable dent.
Furthermore, the Optional Rules on page 30 of the Far Orbit Project, it may make things a bit more doable. You increase the initial damage by +4D (and likewise the difficulty by 4D) to hit a subsection, such as a bridge deflector shield. Combined with the above fire linked method, you could take down the bridge with 9 fighters. Granted, that won't destroy an ISD, but it could easily cripple one. |
I gave my solution in House rules in my thread Starfighters vs Capships.
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4400
It comes down to how exact does your group want to be. Does your group want to make every roll and parse each bit of damage based off predetermined statistics, or on the other extreme does the GM just pick a number for them to roll against?
I play in a couple different groups and each one is demanding about different things. |
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