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Bren
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 Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Did the first edition rules assign a difficulty to eject or get to an escape pod? |
Not under the skill itself. It is just mentioned as one of the uses of Survival in a sort of Off-Handish way. |
Actually it looks like they did assign a difficulty here (or am I reading this out of context?):
| KageRyu wrote: | But, then under Starship combat it says the following:
| Star Wars, the Role Playing Game 1st Edition, page 63 wrote: | | Destroyed ships are obliterated. They disapear in a ball of flame. Generous Game Masters may let players make survival rolls to see if they make it to the escape pods or activate the ejection system in time (difficulty 15). |
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Thanks for sharing this. One flaw in vehicle combat and starship combat in particular is that characters can use CPs to improve their dodge or attack but they can't (according to the RAW) improve the vehicle's soak roll. So if a shot hits a character may be helpless to avoid having their ship destroyed and if they ship is destroyed (especially in space) that is often fatal to the character since if the 12D doesn't kill them the evironment may.
I really, really like the idea of letting characters roll to reach an escape pod since that is a second skill that they could spend CPs on to survive the destruction of their vessel. This seems in keeping with the genre and from an RPG perspective would allow for dramatic scenes of ship destruction like at the beginning of RotS while still giving PCs and important NPCs a chance to survive.
Thanks all for pointing this out! |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Actually it looks like they did assign a difficulty here (or am I reading this out of context?): |
No, it's sort of in context, it's just not listed under the Survival Skill that way. Thay second entry is from the Vehicle Combat section of the First Edition Rulebook - the only place I could find it (however since that was the edition I started with and first learned, it is what I refer to most, and only use the expanded skills and certain other enhanced rules from 2nd and Revised). So a difficulty is suggested, just not under the skill.
I have always felt the D6 books and games had this orginizational problem, the 3 core set (now free PDFs) are the worst, as important rules for automatics and machine guns are not in the combat chapter, but under the equipment themselves - which caused nothing but confusion for many.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | One flaw in vehicle combat and starship combat in particular is that characters can use CPs to improve their dodge or attack but they can't (according to the RAW) improve the vehicle's soak roll. |
Really? That's in the RAW? Is it one of those details that only shows up in 2R&E or something?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | One flaw in vehicle combat and starship combat in particular is that characters can use CPs to improve their dodge or attack but they can't (according to the RAW) improve the vehicle's soak roll. |
Really? That's in the RAW? Is it one of those details that only shows up in 2R&E or something? |
It's regular 2nd Edition. The RAW only mentions using CP to increase STRENGTH to soak damage, not hull or shields on vehicles. It does allow up to 2 CP to be spent to increase damage, and does not specify type or scale (though I have always restricted all CP and FP bonus to natural abilities, skills, and things affected by them, i.e. Brawling and Melee only - but that's me).
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Huh. Must've just missed that...
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | It's regular 2nd Edition. The RAW only mentions using CP to increase STRENGTH to soak damage, not hull or shields on vehicles. It does allow up to 2 CP to be spent to increase damage, and does not specify type or scale... |
Yes, that is my recollection of 2E and 2R&E as well. You add to your skill, your attributes, or your damage. Not to the attributes of equipment or other beings with the exception of damage which is specifically mentioned somewhere in the description of how you can use CPs. A logical interpretation in 2R&E would be that 1 CP adds 1D character scale damage - which would make it nearly useless for starship combat. But nowhere does it say that you can add CPs to Hull roll of your ship or vehicle. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: | | It's regular 2nd Edition. The RAW only mentions using CP to increase STRENGTH to soak damage, not hull or shields on vehicles. It does allow up to 2 CP to be spent to increase damage, and does not specify type or scale... |
Yes, that is my recollection of 2E and 2R&E as well. You add to your skill, your attributes, or your damage. Not to the attributes of equipment or other beings with the exception of damage which is specifically mentioned somewhere in the description of how you can use CPs. A logical interpretation in 2R&E would be that 1 CP adds 1D character scale damage - which would make it nearly useless for starship combat. But nowhere does it say that you can add CPs to Hull roll of your ship or vehicle. |
I would say that 1CP adds 1D at whatever scale the damage is being dealt, since the damage boost could only come from better shot placement; the weapon in question isn't actually hitting harder.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | Yes Garkhal but doesn't it also say in there somewhere an optional rule that "GMs may want to allow PCs survival rolls to get to escape pods when the "ship is destroyed" result is rolled rather than automatically killing their characters, to give the players a second chance to survive?
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Not seeing any statement to that effect in either the blue rule book or the revised rule book, under starship damage.
Now it DOES say
Passenger Damage
Passengers may be injured when
a ship suffers damage or crashes.
Use your judgment to decide whether
a character takes damage.
Right below the Lost move part in the R&E book. No such write up in the blue cover book.
| vanir wrote: |
So I'd use the the 5 result of 1d6 rds breakup meaning you can get to escape pods without having to roll, so long as you don't do anything silly like going back to your cabin to pack first.
And the 6 result of the ship immediately breaking up being the one where PCs get a survival roll under the optional rule.
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If such an optional rule existed, i might see it applying. BUT neither the R&E book or the blue cover has such a rule. That i see.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| The rule appears to have been (foolishly in my opinion) dropped in the change from 1E to 2E. Since I don't have 1E, I am happy to have people point on the prior rule, which seems like a good one to use, especially for PCs and important NPCs. |
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vanir
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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My whole gaming group played since 1e became 2e then went our ways and got together recently, 2r&e is still new to us but when 2e first came out we discussed it as a group and decided to work the transition by substitution and superseding rules only where they were better than the old rule, or expanded on them.
It's hard to remember which system a particular RAW we're using came from, I did think the optional survival roll was 2e but it is indeed 1e.
Still, we didn't replace one edition with another, we always used the next to add to the last, if only so you don't have to keep tossing your library of game books and replacing it, it's getting a bit commercial enterprise doing that, sort of like we've run out of new ideas here at WEG so why not bring out a revised gaming system and get customers to spend money that way.
Now 2e was invaluable as an update on technologies specifications, a lot of refinements and improvements to the gaming details and some mechanics but still we didn't want to lose anything from 1e either because we had a lot of fun. As for 2r&e there's really not a whole lot I get from it, the scaling system is much worse, 2e really had that down in vehicle based combat with the die cap system, but my emphasis isn't on characters all the time, some sessions will be like a WW2 tank battle, in 2r&e tanks are no different to troops because scaling is just die modifiers, six troopers is a tank, you can't do realistic tank warfare like that.
Of course 1e had no scaling system and its damage rules was no better, somewhat restricting gameplay to fairly small settings and limited scope, you could get a good immersion on a planet in 1e or a limited starship engagement, but sustained space theatre and intricate campaigns were a bit let down with lack of adaptive detail and development.
Still as each new addition came out we wanted to add it to rather than substitute from the previous, wherever possible so no fun was sacrificed. |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | My whole gaming group played since 1e became 2e then went our ways and got together recently, 2r&e is still new to us but when 2e first came out we discussed it as a group and decided to work the transition by substitution and superseding rules only where they were better than the old rule, or expanded on them. |
That's pretty much how I have handled it over the years. Even adding and drawing material from other D6 games I liked to expand rules. There were many changes in 2nd I just dropped as I did not like them, and 2nd Revised is really almost the same, save for the changes to scaling, but with a different wrapper. I have found, and my old groups also agreed, the Die Caps work best for mechanicals of different scale, but the adding and subtracting Dice works great for life forms and creatures as it somehow makes it feel more organic, and that became the house standard I still use today.
| Quote: | Of course 1e had no scaling system and its damage rules was no better, somewhat restricting gameplay to fairly small settings and limited scope, you could get a good immersion on a planet in 1e or a limited starship engagement, but sustained space theatre and intricate campaigns were a bit let down with lack of adaptive detail and development.
Still as each new addition came out we wanted to add it to rather than substitute from the previous, wherever possible so no fun was sacrificed. |
For first edition, there was the Star Wars Rules Companion which was not easily found. It had a lot of new optional rules, and introduced the die caps and scaling before 2nd edition. What I liked most of all, and it was left out of the later editions, was an entire chapter about combat between the scales especially aimed at Star Fighters versus starships, and it had some great ideas and suggestions. It included, among other ideas, using Combined Actions to handle Entire Starfighter squads as a single entity (including adding the bonus dice to resist damage), and having damage inflicted to capital ships be -1 pip instead of -1D per level, requiring three of any particular damage results to actual score that damage level (this was explained by sheer size, the compartmentalized structure and construction of capital ships, and other notes - and having used it I like it far better). Lots of great ideas and information in that book, if you can find yourself a copy, I strongly recommend it, even just for reference. I still borrow ideas from this book when looking to expand rules or apply existing rules to new situations.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If such an optional rule existed, i might see it applying. BUT neither the R&E book or the blue cover has such a rule. That i see. |
It was an actual rule from 1st Edition (quoted from book above). As mentioned, it was left out of 2nd Edition for some reason.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | The rule appears to have been (foolishly in my opinion) dropped in the change from 1E to 2E. Since I don't have 1E, I am happy to have people point on the prior rule, which seems like a good one to use, especially for PCs and important NPCs. |
Can you quote the rule from 1e?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | The rule appears to have been (foolishly in my opinion) dropped in the change from 1E to 2E. Since I don't have 1E, I am happy to have people point on the prior rule, which seems like a good one to use, especially for PCs and important NPCs. |
Can you quote the rule from 1e? |
I already did. 1st Edition page 63.
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vanir
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: |
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It's been a long while, but yes I remember the rules companion and we did/do have it in the collection. It was the system I used for for large scale starship combat, it was invaluable in that arena since our group usually winds up in battles where squadrons and capital ships are involved as they advance through the campaign, we like to get into Yavin and Endor style battles. It's a good system, you pretty much use the coordinated actions like WH40K tabletop.
We did the Endor battle once using it, we had our own fleet then as it was the climax of a long campaign. Took nearly four days of solid gaming and a lot of intoxicants, but using the guidelines in the rules companion made for a very entertaining battle involving the Imperial and Rebel fleets and our own, hundreds of starfighters, lots of action, lots of Player tactics, it was a really good long weekend. Kind of one of those "most memorable gaming moments" a player group has.
And you're right it doesn't become obsolete with 2e and isn't contradicted but complementary, we were at 2e by that stage for templates/stats but were still using the rules companion as a reference. It's just that nothing in 2e actually mentions and outlines a lot of stuff in the rules companion, as if it's just a given but players who began in 2e wouldn't know of it.
I forgot the rules companion introduced the die cap scaling. Such a brilliant addition that was. |
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