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atgxtg
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 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Madwand wrote: | | I AM still curious to hear stories of peoples experience with this kind of house rule. Did you have a lot of deaths due to it? Did your tactics have to change to compensate for it, or did your DM have to treat your PC with kid gloves to keep him alive? |
The rule hurts PCs much more than NPCs. Reasons being:
1) The PCs are more likely to be ganged up on by mooks, than the reverse. For instaqnce, if a sqaud of 8 troopers shoot at a PC, the PC is going to be -7D to the dodge, pretty much guaranteeing that some of the shots will hit. Even Luke, Han and Leia can't withstand that for long. As the majoirty of fights in Star Wars fall into this category the end result is lots of dead PCs.
2) The NPCs don't have to worry about bucking the odds again next gamre session. So the signficant NPCs can afford to spend all thier CPs and FPs for defense. PCs, however, must contend with the fact that if they spend all thier points fighting off the bad guys now, they won't have those points to fight off the next wave of bad guys, who pop up. So not only do the PCs die more often, but they will advance more slowely due to the greater need to spend CPs for defense.
3) The Wild DIe just makes the situation that much worse for the PCs. While the Wild DIe is unbiased and it is just as likely for a PC to bre missed becuase of the Wild Die as he is to get hit becuase of it, the effects don't balance out. In other words, not being killed once, doesn't offset being killed once. For an extreme example, it doesn't matter how many times the Death Star missed Alderraan, just as long as it hits once. Since the PCs will be rolling dice more often they will roll more ones,and get hit more often.
Now the rule does help PCs when the are fighting big nasties like a Rancor or Darth Vader, but, IMO, that is not much of a benefit, and is usually a drawback, as it will make the big meances too easily dealth with. For example, if a large group of rebels were all to shoot at Darth Vader during a round, they would overwhelm his defenses. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 2) The NPCs don't have to worry about bucking the odds again next gamre session. So the signficant NPCs can afford to spend all thier CPs and FPs for defense. PCs, however, must contend with the fact that if they spend all thier points fighting off the bad guys now, they won't have those points to fight off the next wave of bad guys, who pop up. So not only do the PCs die more often, but they will advance more slowely due to the greater need to spend CPs for defense. |
Being it is rare i even see gms spending FP/CP for their baddies, even low level ones, this is a moot point.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | 2) The NPCs don't have to worry about bucking the odds again next gamre session. So the signficant NPCs can afford to spend all thier CPs and FPs for defense. PCs, however, must contend with the fact that if they spend all thier points fighting off the bad guys now, they won't have those points to fight off the next wave of bad guys, who pop up. So not only do the PCs die more often, but they will advance more slowely due to the greater need to spend CPs for defense. |
Being it is rare i even see gms spending FP/CP for their baddies, even low level ones, this is a moot point. |
It not moot when a rule variant increases the number of rolls than PCs must make. IN RAW a PC can spend CP to raise his dodge against all attacks for the round. If the PC must roll against each attack, then they will be spending more of thier CPs in a combat. The more they spend in a combat, the less thay will have to spend later on, be it another combat, skill test, or even character improvment.
The way Star Wars adventures tend to go, PCs usually need to spend CPs and FPs near during a climatic scene near the end of the adventure. And that is just when the NPCs who have CPS and FPS to burn tend to show up.
For example, using this hourse rule, Luke would probably have run out of CPs and FPs fighting stromtroopers and be out of points by the time he got to the attack on the Death Star. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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The way Star Wars adventures tend to go, PCs usually need to spend CPs and FPs near during a climatic scene near the end of the adventure. And that is just when the NPCs who have CPS and FPS to burn tend to show up. |
That maybe when they show up, but rarely have i seen them used..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="garhkal"] | Quote: |
That maybe when they show up, but rarely have i seen them used.. |
Do you see PCs using CPs and FPS more during the climax of an adventure? |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Several yes... some have stats so high they rarely need them. BUT you bet your butt they do wen i am gm, as i make the enemy smart as their stats allow..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Several yes... some have stats so high they rarely need them. BUT you bet your butt they do wen i am gm, as i make the enemy smart as their stats allow.. |
THen my point is valid. IF the PCs need to make more rolls early on, they end up spendin more CPs early on and thus have fewer for the climax of the adventure, or for character improvement after the adventure.So this dodge option hurts the PCs.
If I were using this variant rule, I'd increase the CP awards I gave out by a couple of points to try and make up for the extra CPs the players are going to have to spend on dodgeing. |
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Phalanks Balas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well... I think giving a malus or requesting several dodge roll for multiple attack is an answer for the GM at "monkey in fire" PCs. It is very boring for the game to see PC able to dodge everything. GM can't send 10 Boba Fett against a PC team. In other hand, it make sense to put the rules in the right place and to change them regarding particular situation.
Can a character dodge everytime if not surprise ? Rules say yes. I say no : let a character try to dodge a thermal detonator explosion in a TIE fighter assuming the detonator is in it.
Sometime I consider dodging to not be enough. I request Full dodging or spending 1 force point.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Phalanks Balas wrote: | Well... I think giving a malus or requesting several dodge roll for multiple attack is an answer for the GM at "monkey in fire" PCs. It is very boring for the game to see PC able to dodge everything. GM can't send 10 Boba Fett against a PC team. In other hand, it make sense to put the rules in the right place and to change them regarding particular situation.
Can a character dodge everytime if not surprise ? Rules say yes. I say no : let a character try to dodge a thermal detonator explosion in a TIE fighter assuming the detonator is in it.
Sometime I consider dodging to not be enough. I request Full dodging or spending 1 force point. |
But even 6 Stormies will fire combined at 4D+20 (perhaps old rules), enough to hit most PCs.
Stormies being The Elite are of course not affected by the Dex penalty for their armour.
Also, force players doing full dodges to move towards nearest cover or away from the attackers. If you do all you can to avoid getting hit you should be forced to use all options at hand. |
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Kytross
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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This is what the "full dodge" is for. In a fight between an X-Wing and a Star Destroyer the X-Wing is going to dodge and run. A full dodge is when a player states they are going to use this entire round to dodge, so they can't attack.
When doing a full dodge you roll your dodge and that total is added to the opponents difficulty modifier to hit. SO, for example:
An Impstar Capship gunner has a skill of 4D+2 for Capship gunnery and a fire control of 4D for a total of 8D+2. He's shooting at the player who's in an X-Wing at medium range moving at high speed, making it a difficult shot, 16-20, lets say the difficulty modifier is eighteen. Under normal circumstances an Impstar Capship gunner has to beat your player's dodge by 18 to hit. Your player's dodge gets reduced every shot by Multiple Action Penalties.
Your player has, say, 5D in Starfighter piloting with a 6D+1 specialization in X-Wing. 3D maneuverability in an X-Wing and a 6D scale modifier. So that's 6D+1 + 3D + 6D for a total of 15D+1. An average roll for that would be 53, rounded down. So for a full dodge that means every capship gunner would have to roll an 18 + 53 = 71 just to hit your ship.
Of course, your player can't attack this turn, but that's the trade off for being untouchable.
I play that you still get your free movement when using a full dodge, so you can still run from the big bad Star Destroyer.
It's also a good way to get behind a Star Destroyer where they have no guns and you have free reign on their engines. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: |
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I think most people here are aware of how full dodges work. 
Edit: When full dodging I allow 1 free move (ie movex1) in the direction towards nearest cover or away from the attacker. If caught in the open Full Dodging normally means dropping to the ground. |
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Kytross
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:13 am Post subject: |
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My response was mainly directed at the OP. I've always played it one dodge per attack as standard. The system has a mechanic for dealing with a ridiculous number of attackers already, i.e. full dodge.
Yeah, it's the house rules forum, I just don't think the dodge system really needs a house rule.
I let my players decide what they want to do with full dodge. If they want to drop to the ground then that's their business, but I use it to get out of a bad situation when I'm playing. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | My response was mainly directed at the OP. I've always played it one dodge per attack as standard. The system has a mechanic for dealing with a ridiculous number of attackers already, i.e. full dodge.
Yeah, it's the house rules forum, I just don't think the dodge system really needs a house rule.
I let my players decide what they want to do with full dodge. If they want to drop to the ground then that's their business, but I use it to get out of a bad situation when I'm playing. |
But, correct me if I get you wrong here, even by the RAW the 'normal' 1 action dodge applies to all ranged attacks directed against a character during a round. So the full dodge is not meant to specifically handle a ridiculous number of attacks but for the fact that you get a 'bonus' to the dodge. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | I think most people here are aware of how full dodges work.
Edit: When full dodging I allow 1 free move (ie movex1) in the direction towards nearest cover or away from the attacker. If caught in the open Full Dodging normally means dropping to the ground. |
How do you 2 apply the 'movement roll' for going through hostile terrain to that when they are full dodging??
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Phalanks Balas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Phalanks Balas wrote: | Well... I think giving a malus or requesting several dodge roll for multiple attack is an answer for the GM at "monkey in fire" PCs. It is very boring for the game to see PC able to dodge everything. GM can't send 10 Boba Fett against a PC team. In other hand, it make sense to put the rules in the right place and to change them regarding particular situation.
Can a character dodge everytime if not surprise ? Rules say yes. I say no : let a character try to dodge a thermal detonator explosion in a TIE fighter assuming the detonator is in it.
Sometime I consider dodging to not be enough. I request Full dodging or spending 1 force point. |
But even 6 Stormies will fire combined at 4D+20 (perhaps old rules), enough to hit most PCs.
Stormies being The Elite are of course not affected by the Dex penalty for their armour.
Also, force players doing full dodges to move towards nearest cover or away from the attackers. If you do all you can to avoid getting hit you should be forced to use all options at hand. |
6 stormies will have a 2D+2 combined bous (using 2nd Ed rules). But anyway I see your point of view : what can PCs do vs a lot of opponents able to combine their fire ? The answers are:
1°) flee
If you can't stand the fight it's maybe because you don't have to. A smoke grenade can help you to retreat.
2°) hold the stand fight until death
Sometime PC team think there are a band of brother who don't know loosing a battle or retreat...
3°) surrender
Maybe in the scenario the PC team is supposed to be catch and put in a prison...
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