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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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 Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I have a baaaaad fealing about this. When stuff like this happens no one will spend any points in starship piloting!!!
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Or they'll just invest in an astromec those can pilot (not well but it's a nice backup) and they'll calculate the jump for you so all someone else has to do is hold the ship steady until they get to the jump point.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | I have a baaaaad fealing about this. When stuff like this happens no one will spend any points in starship piloting!!! |
Bah, the next time its the Wookie thats the target..does that mean that as soon as an NPC targets a PC people will stop playing that typer of character...or start playing identical clones of each other so no one sticks out.. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | I have a baaaaad fealing about this. When stuff like this happens no one will spend any points in starship piloting!!! |
Bah, the next time its the Wookie thats the target..does that mean that as soon as an NPC targets a PC people will stop playing that typer of character...or start playing identical clones of each other so no one sticks out.. |
It just means that no one will drive the bus since all PC will be cuddling in the back seat...
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | I have a baaaaad fealing about this. When stuff like this happens no one will spend any points in starship piloting!!! |
Bah, the next time its the Wookie thats the target..does that mean that as soon as an NPC targets a PC people will stop playing that typer of character...or start playing identical clones of each other so no one sticks out.. |
It just means that no one will drive the bus since all PC will be cuddling in the back seat... |
But in this case that will doom the whole party (perhaps exept the Jedi who can add Control) as that will give the bad guy all the time he needs... In this case the Jedi is actually the pilot, so hell probably make it... |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 181
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Telekinesis is out of the question anyway as long as he doesnt target the ship directly (los required).
If a Jedi knows there is a person inside a speeder tank, can he try to target that person with for example TK (TeleKill), or Telepahty even if they havent met?
If so..
If there are several persons, he would target a random person as he has nothing to tell them apart (he hasnt met anyone)
The only difference in my example is that he dont have time to kill each person before they make an emergency jump to Hyperspeed. Therefore he must find out who is the pilot using Telepahty and then kill that person.. There will be 6 persons on the ship and only a few rounds so hell have to be lucky anyway..
Im looking into the Farseer power, but what is the other power youre talking about? |
Although many house rule it that way, I'm not sure that BTB Telekinesis definitely needs to be line-of-sight.
The important thing with both telekinesis and (for this example, more importantly) Telekinetic Kill is that the target of the power be specified in terms that do not require any knowledge the character does not actually possess.
With Telekinetic Kill you can target anyone you can clearly specify - that it to say that the description you give can only possibly be one person. The pilot of that speeder is fine. You do not need to know them. You know they are the pilot. You can see them. It can only be that person. The difficulty will still be modified by proximity but that's ok.
The pilot of a ship where you cannot see the pilot and there is more than one person onboard and you do not know who the pilot is: that's not really possible nor should you let it be possible even once because that's a really bad precedent to set. This applies to Life Sense and Telepathy as well.
Receptive Telepathy is not concise or fast enough as a rule to tell you in a round whether someone is the pilot without you being able to prompt them. Life Sense definitely cannot. It really isn't fair to give the Dark Jedi the benefit of the doubt in this case because you would be mad to give a player the equivalent leeway.
| Quote: | | Im looking into the Farseer power, but what is the other power youre talking about? |
In my own version of the Force Rules and several others you can find around the internet I have a power called Project Senses which allows you to project your senses anywhere you can specify. "Inside the cockpit of that ship" could be sufficient. There is a scene in Dark Empire where Luke clearly does something like this. A power along those lines would be a fine way for the Dark Jedi to determine who the pilot is and then target that person. However, to be fair you would have to specify the power in a manner your game could allow and then at least allow for the chance (and be happy to allow) that one of your player's picked up the same power.
| Quote: | | I have a baaaaad fealing about this. When stuff like this happens no one will spend any points in starship piloting!!! |
I'm sure our friend doesn't intend on this happening very often. 
Presuming the Dark Jedi can legitimately pull off the stunt its a good way to demonstrate his threat. The player probably won't die anyway (only be wounded) and its totally reasonable for the enemy to go for the pilot in this circumstance just as you would expect the enemy to go for the guy with the best weapon in a combat situation. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Although many house rule it that way, I'm not sure that BTB Telekinesis definitely needs to be line-of-sight. |
BTB telekinesis is modified by proximity, so you DON'T have to have line of sight.
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 181
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | BTB telekinesis is modified by proximity, so you DON'T have to have line of sight. |
That's how I've always interpreted it. That said, beyond line of sight it can be a little difficult to use since you can't see what you are doing. Also, as I said, many people house rule this one for various reasons and our freind here might be one of them. Personally, I think it's not an unreasonable house rule as telekinesis can be quite abusive even with this restriction.
By the way, being proximity modified it not a quarantee that you can use a power at any distance. Rather pointlessly, if you ask me, Force Lightning is both proximity modified and limited to line of sight |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | Although many house rule it that way, I'm not sure that BTB Telekinesis definitely needs to be line-of-sight. |
BTB telekinesis is modified by proximity, so you DON'T have to have line of sight. |
"The target must be in sight of the Jedi"
Page 147 2ed Revised Rulebook |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4866
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: |
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There is a time and place for ditching the rules for the sake of a great cinematic scene.
If you have to have a rule to justify doing something nutty, then always remember there is that TotJC "special rule," where you can burn a FP and do something with a force power that the power was not originally intended to do. Kill the pilot, rip out the starship engines, do some damage, and let them have some fun.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | There is a time and place for ditching the rules for the sake of a great cinematic scene. |
I hope not. It's one of the best ways to ruin a campaign. Unlike in films and TV, the GM is going to have to deal with the players wanting to do the same thing again. And once you set a precedent for the "Force Cuisinart" power forever will it dominate your gaming group.
I've seen a lot of good campaigns get destroyed because the GM let the group do something "fun" for a cool scene only to end up opening the door for some uberability that derails the campaign. . |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 181
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "The target must be in sight of the Jedi" |
I honestly have no memory of reading that before. How wierd. I've often allowed the use of telekinesis beyond actual line of sight although with the provisions I described before. Oh, well, I haven't used the actual Telekinesis power as written in the original rules for quite some time -perhaps I just forgot 
As for the original problem, I think Cheshire might have the easiest solution. Just spend a Force Point and have done with it. Alternatively, you could just give the ship a window and say the Dark Jedi can see through macrobinoculars into the cockpit or allow him to use Magnify Senses or Shift Senses (would X-rays penetrate the hull of a ship - probably not) to similar effect. |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | There is a time and place for ditching the rules for the sake of a great cinematic scene. |
I hope not. It's one of the best ways to ruin a campaign. Unlike in films and TV, the GM is going to have to deal with the players wanting to do the same thing again. And once you set a precedent for the "Force Cuisinart" power forever will it dominate your gaming group.
I've seen a lot of good campaigns get destroyed because the GM let the group do something "fun" for a cool scene only to end up opening the door for some uberability that derails the campaign. . |
I'm with Cheshire (as my prior posts demonstrate).
Rules are your friend, but don't get so bogged down by them that they hamper your ability to tell a story. Rules are there to serve the story, not the other way around.
As a GM it's understood that you have MUCH more flexibility in rule interpretation/use than a player does. Allowing a player that sort of flexibility would be absolutely foolhardy and you're right, would set a terrible precedent. That doesn't apply to the GM so tightly. As a GM if you need something to happen for the story to advance, it happens... it's the ol Rule 0, or the "a wizard did it" idea. If doing so causes you horrible problems with your players, you're probably not controlling the game well enough in the first place.
Yes, gaming is collaborative, but when it comes down to it, whether they be player complaints, desires, or even straight up rules problems, the GM has the final word. Reasonable players will recognize a plot device for what it is and understand why it won't work when they might try to use it themselves. Plot devices are beyond the rules.
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 181
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Rules are your friend, but don't get so bogged down by them that they hamper your ability to tell a story. Rules are there to serve the story, not the other way around.
As a GM it's understood that you have MUCH more flexibility in rule interpretation/use than a player does. Allowing a player that sort of flexibility would be absolutely foolhardy and you're right, would set a terrible precedent. That doesn't apply to the GM so tightly. As a GM if you need something to happen for the story to advance, it happens... it's the ol Rule 0, or the "a wizard did it" idea. If doing so causes you horrible problems with your players, you're probably not controlling the game well enough in the first place. |
I think different groups and GMs have different sensitivity to this sort of thing. In my group I wouldn't be particularly comfortable with an NPC doing something blatant that I knew the players couldn't. Allowing him to do something when I didn't know exactly how he did it would be fine but I should be happy if the players worked out a tactic to do the same thing.
One off powers or artefacts of incredible power which the story says the villain looked high and low for (and presumably had his own adventures) in order to attain are fine because the players know that if they had the chance to use the same device I would grant them the same power. I'm just not going to let them use it if I can avoid it.
But if my players felt I had done something that they would never ever be alllowed to do and all it cost me was a Force Point I think they would rightly feel that I had stolen control of the game from them. The players are the center of the game, not the NPCs, after all.
The reason I said cheshire's idea seemed reasonable was that you were spending a Force Point not to have to think about it or to assume some minor favourable circumstance. There must be a way that someone could do what this Dark Jedi is doing - even if it involves a bit of good fortune. But if I honestly thought it was impossible without fudging the rules I wouldn't let the Dark Jedi do it.
that's just how it is with my groups. I don't think I lack control or the respect of my players. I just feel that the players must know that their character's stand on the same bedrock as all the NPCs. It builds confidence in the setting and world. I think sensibilities on this matter vary quite a lot from group to group. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | Although many house rule it that way, I'm not sure that BTB Telekinesis definitely needs to be line-of-sight. |
BTB telekinesis is modified by proximity, so you DON'T have to have line of sight. |
"The target must be in sight of the Jedi"
Page 147 2ed Revised Rulebook |
Which is strange since the power description for it's difficulties specifically mentions "Modified by proximity"...
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