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Grimace
Captain
Captain

Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:37 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

Grimace wrote:

Funny, I ran Star Wars for over a decade using the slower times, and running merchant games, and I never had a problem with the times or the amounts people made.

How could you have used the slower times, when they didn't exist back then? Mikhael's navicomp is a new development, as are his slower travel times.

Probably because when I was running the games there wasn't much in the way of maps, there wasn't much in the way of cartoons or prequels or anything other than the WEG version of Star Wars to use for times. So I used the general idea that they presented in the 2nd edition rulebook (and again in 2nd R&E) that travel within a sector was a "few hours to a few days", within a region was the same, a nearby region was "several days to weeks" and across the galaxy was "several weeks to several months".

To me, that's longer times, so that's what I used.

So no, I didn't use Mikhael's numbers, but I used something that was pretty darn similar and wasn't anywhere close to Coruscant-Mon Calamari in a day. (or whereever the reinforcements came from)

Fallon Kell
Commodore

Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:23 am Post subject:

Grimace wrote:

I used the general idea that they presented in the 2nd edition rulebook (and again in 2nd R&E) that travel within a sector was a "few hours to a few days", within a region was the same, a nearby region was "several days to weeks" and across the galaxy was "several weeks to several months".

I was looking for that quote. Thanks for digging it up.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:41 am Post subject:

Grimace wrote:

So I used the general idea that they presented in the 2nd edition rulebook (and again in 2nd R&E) that travel within a sector was a "few hours to a few days", within a region was the same, a nearby region was "several days to weeks" and across the galaxy was "several weeks to several months".

But those were presented as "rough guidelines" and both 2E and 2R&E had the Gazeteer (also WEG) and text under hyperspace travel that noted that it was often faster to get from sector to sector than travel within a sector.

It strike me as odd that you would throw out the only hard and fast travel times in the rulebook (the Gazeteer) in favor oof some guidelines that were presented as rough guidelines, and which were often contradicted within the core rulebook.

Quote:

To me, that's longer times, so that's what I used.

Did you run your campaign in the Minos cluster or other WEG created area, or did you create your own campaign area and create your own planets with thier own trade profiles?

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:33 am Post subject:

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

Okay, so we're on the same page. GG6 calculates per-time consumables strictly in a 1:1 linear relationship with the number of crew + passengers. I actually agree with you that there should be a more complex relationship that takes into account resources consumed by the ship more-or-less irrespective of the number of beings aboard.

I thought having half the cost be for the ship and the other half for the occupants would work. That way it would be 5cr per day for each and you could take off 5cr per person.

Quote:

I guess the question is to what degree those costs are effectively negligible in terms of travel-time opportunity cost. For simplicity, let's just stick with the GG6 rule and example, so that we keep it canon. So, there is a 2800/month credit cost in consumables when carrying 8 passengers. According to the GG6 rules (with which we both do not agree), there would be a (10*2*35=)700/month cost for just the 2-person crew.

It doesn't work that way. It is 10 cr per "passenger capacity". in GG6, not per passenger currently aboard. Go look at the Twi'lek Dancer example, it never says that the ship is actually carrying passengers.

And if you look at real vehicles, this makes sense. If you pilot a tanker ship across the Atlantic, it costs about the same to run the ship whether on not you have any passengers aboard.

Quote:

Now, I've accepted several of your terms - I understand that there are economic costs to longer travel times, and that the per-month (salaries and debt-retirement) fees enter into that cost.
Let's see if you will be generous is accepting some of mine that mitigate the per-month cost due to longer travel times. For starters, the docking fees. The longer one is taking during trips, the smaller the portion of the month one is spending at 50-150cr/day sitting at a starport. Secondly, because each hyperspace jump takes longer, the longer one can go without paying for the 1000-credit maintenance overhaul.

Yes, both statements are correct. Any expenses that are "per jump" will be lower if you do fewer jumps. But fewer jumps also mean less cargo and lower profits.

Quote:

So, let's say that the average tramp-freighter trip in your conception is 1-day and mine is 1 week. Layovers are 2 days. I'll calculate your 2500/month loan-shark cost (, 20cr./ consumables when in transit, 2-day starport layovers (@ 100cr./day) and 50cr./jump in overhaul costs.

IT would be 80 cr/day for the restocking costs, not 20, and the crew would need to get something to eat while not in transit.

Quote:

So, with 1-day jumps, you get (35 rounded up to 36 days/month) 12 jumps.
you have to pay per-month:
Consumables = (35 rounded up to 36/3=12*20=) 240 credits

As I noted earilier the restocking costs are per capacity, not per occupancy. Remember, this covers things like fuel and maintenance, and those won't vary by occupancy.So 35*10*8=2800 credits.
Loan shark = 2500
Hyperdrive Maintenance overhaul = 50*12 = 600
Starport docking fees = 100*24 = 2400
50 cr/day is the "standard" fee. It isn't 50-150 with 100 average. It is 50 average, with 150 being a high fee. So use 50*24= 1200

Total = 5740 (excluding crew salaries). That means you have to make 478cr. per jump.

Total: 7100 cr. Req. Profit per Jump: 592 credits.

Assuming 5-day week jumps, you get 35/5=7. Let's round that to 5 days of travel and 2 days of layover, meaning you get 5 jumps per month.
Consumables = (25*20=) 250 credits
Again, cost is per capacity, so 25*80= 2000 credits
Loan shark = 2500
Hyperdrive Maintenance overhaul = 50*5 = 250
Starport docking fees = 100*10 = 1000 [/quote]
50 cr/day is the "standard" fee. It isn't 50-150 with 100 average. It is 50 average, with 150 being a high fee. So use 50*10= 500

Total = 4000 (excluding crew salaries). That means you have to make 800 per jump.

Total: 5250 Required Profit Per Jump: 1050

Quote:

Once you take the loan shark out of the equation, 1-day trips go for 270cr./trip, and 5-day trips go for 300cr./trip. That narrows the margins considerably.

So, yes, you have to make more money per trip under my longer travel times, but it's not an amount that is prohibitive.

Only becuase you have kept the second route fairly short at 5 days. Tery using some of those "weeks to months" guideline values and things fall apart.

Try an actual comaprsion of the two travel times. Let's make it a run from Corellia to Bespin.

According to the Gazeteer, Corellia to Bespin would be under a day, even with a x2 hyperdrive. Corellia is a busy port and probably more expensive to dock at that the standard 50Cr/day, but there is a pretty good chance that the captain is a memember of the Corellian Merchants Guild and can net the 50 cr/day fee, so let's stick with the 7100 credits per month.

Now, by the navicomp, the trip takes 4.84days, but with a x2 hyperdrive (the standard for a freighter) it would take about ten days. So a ship could get in 3 and a half trips per month.

b]Consumables[/b] = (28*80=) 2240 credits
Loan shark = 2500
Hyperdrive Maintenance overhaul = 50*3.5 = 175
Starport docking fees = 50*7 = 350

Total: 5265 credits/month; Required Profit Per Trip: 1505 credits.

That is a difference of about 913 creditrs per trip, that has to be passed or or absorbed into the costs. Just how easy that is to absorb depends upon the cargo carried and how much.

For drop point deleiveies, at the average of 7.5 cr per ton per day, the 12 trip ship would make 27,000 credits (7.5*100*36), while the 3.5 trip ship would make 4125 credits. That is a huge difference, and one that shows that drop point deleivery between Corellian and Bespin is not profitable for the slower ship.

With cargo, an averae cargo is about 4000 credits per ton. Assuming a good run with a 10% profit per ton, than works out to 400 credits per ton. So the first ship would need to carry at least 2 tons of cargo to pay expenses, while the latter would need to carry 4 tons (twice as much).So the difference is quite signficant.

On top of that, the added costs would affect the selling price of he goods. So so cargo would not be viable.

atgxtg wrote:

So it really looks like the ultra fast travel times are what Lucasfilm intended.

I'll accept that this is what Lucasarts intends. I don't think it has always intended anything beyond making for good stories on a televised/movie medium. Our medium (roleplaying) is different.[/quote]

A good RPG that is based upon an establisehd setting should match the setting. Not be independant of it. The goal of a Star Wars RPG is to let people play in the Star Wars universe, not someplace else. If the rules of the RPG make the events of the Setting impossible then the rules should be changed to better fit the setting.

Evidence of ships zipping around the galaxy in under a day hark back to the first film, so the faster times are not a change in Lucasfilms view.

Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

It doesn't work that way. It is 10 cr per "passenger capacity". in GG6, not per passenger currently aboard. Go look at the Twi'lek Dancer example, it never says that the ship is actually carrying passengers. And if you look at real vehicles, this makes sense. If you pilot a tanker ship across the Atlantic, it costs about the same to run the ship whether on not you have any passengers aboard.

The more I think about this, the less I agree with you on the point of consumables. As to the text, I do see that it says 'capacity', but let's talk about what it means. What is being re-stocked? If it is oxygen, potable water and food, then it would be per passenger, and not per passenger capacity.

If it is energy to power the ship, why would it be per passenger capacity? Your example of the tanker is useful to the degree that it would require the same amount of fuel regardless of the passengers, but it probably requires much more fuel than a ferry which has a much larger passenger capacity, because a tanker hauls oil and not passengers.

In your recalculation you mention that the restocking is also for maintenance. But maintenance has already been accounted for.

atgxtg wrote:

Yes, both statements are correct. Any expenses that are "per jump" will be lower if you do fewer jumps. But fewer jumps also mean less cargo and lower profits.
...
Only becuase you have kept the second route fairly short at 5 days. Tery using some of those "weeks to months" guideline values and things fall apart.

Well, costs rise in terms of the variables by weighted average, sure, but consider for a moment the market of a tramp freighter. It's niche is in places where there is not a comparative advantage for bulk freighters or passenger liners. That means that you're going to want to travel to or from places where there is not a sufficient market for haulers and liners, either because few or poor people live at one end of the trip, or because the quantity of the good demanded is limited.
Both suggest shorter distances. Why would the common traveler or shipper charter a tramp freighter for the Corellia-Bespin route? The passenger would book passage on a liner and the shipper would either have enough goods to put on a bulk freighter, or he would use the SWU equivalent of FedEx (ImpEx?). Now, if they're going from some ho-dunk world to a major place or another ho-dunk world, then the chartered Tramp Freighter becomes a more viable form of transport. If there is a closer major place to the ho-dunk world, the savvy traveler would charter the tramp freighter for the shorter trip to the closer major world, and then hitch a liner to the destination.

atgxtg wrote:

Total: 5265 credits/month; Required Profit Per Trip: 1505 credits.

Okay, so let's stick with your numbers for argument's sake.
In the 1st ed sourcebook (p. 96), it says that a chartered ship will cost 10,000 with a 1x modifier for a heavily traveled route (like Corellia-Bespin). 10,000-1505 = 8495cr. profit. I don't know. Sounds like a pretty decent profit margin to me.

atgxtg wrote:

For drop point deleiveies, at the average of 7.5 cr per ton per day, the 12 trip ship would make 27,000 credits (7.5*100*36), while the 3.5 trip ship would make 4125 credits. That is a huge difference, and one that shows that drop point deleivery between Corellian and Bespin is not profitable for the slower ship.

Yes, that is a huge difference. And with 27,000 credits for such a trip the tramp freighter captain would be able to pay off his crime lord in no-time flat. If you want to adventure in such an easy-peasy galaxy, go right ahead. I'd make my tramp freighter captains really struggle to make their money.

By the way - I have another travel time for you from the Heir to the Empire Trilogy: The Chimaera goes from Wayland to Myrkr in 5 days. These places are not incorporated into the alpha-version of the navcomp, but in TEA you can see that they're quite close to one another.

atgxtg wrote:

But those were presented as "rough guidelines" and both 2E and 2R&E had the Gazeteer (also WEG) and text under hyperspace travel that noted that it was often faster to get from sector to sector than travel within a sector.
It strike me as odd that you would throw out the only hard and fast travel times in the rulebook (the Gazeteer) in favor oof some guidelines that were presented as rough guidelines, and which were often contradicted within the core rulebook.

Yes, they're rough guidelines. 'Rough' means 'margin of error', not 'flat wrong'. Rough means that it should be somewhere within the range given. Your 30 hours across the galaxy is total contradiction to the guidelines.
When it says travel is often faster to get from one sector to the next, that implies a more networked hyperroute system. I don't think they meant your 5-minute short-cuts.
As to often contradicted, care to name examples other than the Gazetteer?

Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

A good RPG that is based upon an establisehd setting should match the setting. Not be independant of it. The goal of a Star Wars RPG is to let people play in the Star Wars universe, not someplace else. If the rules of the RPG make the events of the Setting impossible then the rules should be changed to better fit the setting.
Evidence of ships zipping around the galaxy in under a day hark back to the first film, so the faster times are not a change in Lucasfilms view.

Well, this subforum is for the 'official rules', and the official rules come from WEG, not from interpretations of the Clone Wars cartoon. Now, if you disagree with the WEG rules, perhaps you should discuss that in the House Rules forum.

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject:

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

The more I think about this, the less I agree with you on the point of consumables.

I don't see how. You didn't agree with me from the start, and still don't.

Quote:

As to the text, I do see that it says 'capacity', but let's talk about what it means. What is being re-stocked? If it is oxygen, potable water and food, then it would be per passenger, and not per passenger capacity.

As per GG6 page 31 restocking covers: replenishment of all necessary fluids, including lubricating fluids, coolants, oxygen and other life support gases, basic protiens for food converter systems, replacement of air filters and gravtiational disks, albrative heat shields, recalibration of the ion drives, and basic maintenace of the hyperdrive.

Of these only oxygen and food protiens would be affected by the number of people on board. Hence the reason why the cost is per capacity.

Quote:

If it is energy to power the ship, why would it be per passenger capacity?

Because itis a simple method of facoring both the size of the ship and how many people it has to handle. There is really no measure of ship size in the RPG.

Quote:

Your example of the tanker is useful to the degree that it would require the same amount of fuel regardless of the passengers, but it probably requires much more fuel than a ferry which has a much larger passenger capacity, because a tanker hauls oil and not passengers.

Usually the tanker requires less fuel than the passenger liner. Tankers are designed to be very economical as they make thier money by on low cost per ton per mile. Ferries are shourt haul vessels and charge more per "ton".

But, even using a ferry, the cost for running the ferry is about the same if it is empty as it would be f it were full. If said ferry had a few vending machines, it might need to replace some food and drink, but most the other "consumables" would be used up at the same rate.

Quote:

In your recalculation you mention that the restocking is also for maintenance. But maintenance has already been accounted for.

No, the maintenance overhaul is akin to rebuilding the engine after it's recommended number of number of hours use, and is not the same as restocking..

Quote:

Both suggest shorter distances.

No. Not at all.

Quote:

Why would the common traveler or shipper charter a tramp freighter for the Corellia-Bespin route? The passenger would book passage on a liner and the shipper would either have enough goods to put on a bulk freighter, or he would use the SWU equivalent of FedEx (ImpEx?).

Few reasons to charter, but several to use.
First off taking a liner would require the character to pay liner rates, and then wait for the liner to make the trip, and he might have to wait for days or weeks for the next run would also have to put up with any stops the liner would make along he way. A tramp freigher could leave at any time,fly direct, and would be cheaper to book passage on.

Most of this holds up for bulk freighters too. For comparsion in the real world if you want to ship something overseas, you might have to wait for weeks or months for the container ship to get filled up.

There probably isn't a FedEx in the Star Wars Universe (FedEx didn't really kick off until airfreight and container ships killed off most the tramp freighter business in the real world) and the tramp freighters fill the FedEx niche.

Quote:

Now, if they're going from some ho-dunk world to a major place or another ho-dunk world, then the chartered Tramp Freighter becomes a more viable form of transport. If there is a closer major place to the ho-dunk world, the savvy traveler would charter the tramp freighter for the shorter trip to the closer major world, and then hitch a liner to the destination.

With the exception of actually chartering a ship, as opposed to just booking passage or sending freighter via a tramp freighter, I disagree. Again looking at the real world, the run from England to the US was a major route, and yet even during the height of the passenger liner age there were quite a few tramp freighters making the run between the same ports.

If you aren't dealing in huge volume, bulk freighters aren't worth it. And that is why the tramp freighters survive.

Quote:

Yes, but you rarely have \someone chartering a ship. If a freighter is hired to haul cargo, they get paid the delivery rate, if they are taking passengers then the passengers pay the passage fee.

Chartering a ship eans that you hire the ship to do a spcial run to a desintation of your choosing. Most tramp freighters running from Corella to Bespin would be hauling cargo, and making a few hundred credits on the occasional passenger, notbeing chartered.

Quote:

[Yes, that is a huge difference. And with 27,000 credits for such a trip the tramp freighter captain would be able to pay off his crime lord in no-time flat. If you want to adventure in such an easy-peasy galaxy, go right ahead.

That would assume that the PC can get some milk run where they are constantly hauling cargo to and from both planets. Such a "milk run" would be highly sought after, and probably already being run by somebody else.

And any complications (such as adventures) would throw the time table off, as would things like R&R for the crew, reapairs, or anything else. So you probably won't find such a route.

More likely would be that they would be hired to make the run once, or on a regular, but not constant basis, such as once a month.

Quote:

I'd make my tramp freighter captains really struggle to make their money.

What make? You man loose. The route costs more to run than it pays out. So the freighter captains will never make any money that way. But then, if you are assuming that tramp freighters are being chartered every time they leave port, your captains won't be struggle with mouch other than thier tax returns.

Quote:

By the way - I have another travel time for you from the Heir to the Empire Trilogy: The Chimaera goes from Wayland to Myrkr in 5 days. These places are not incorporated into the alpha-version of the navcomp, but in TEA you can see that they're quite close to one another.

If Tim Zhn is okay, I take it that the Han Solo books are in, since they have a sorucebook. How about the Rogue Sqaudron series? Those fighters make good time.

Quote:

Yes, they're rough guidelines. 'Rough' means 'margin of error', not 'flat wrong'. Rough means that it should be somewhere within the range given.

Quote:

Your 30 hours across the galaxy is total contradiction to the guidelines.
When it says travel is often faster to get from one sector to the next, that implies a more networked hyperroute system. I don't think they meant your 5-minute short-cuts.

No. The network is not implied. According to WEG, there was no network. You an inferiing a network becuase because you are a network analyst and this is your pet theory.

2R&E page 119 wrote:

Travel times are dependent
upon how far apart the systems are, whether the route
must go around any obstacles, and how often the route
is used. Well-travelled routes are much faster, while
barely-used routes take much longer even if they don't
cover much distance.

Not that nothing there says or implies network. Just that well traveled routes are faster.

2R&E page 119 wrote:

Travel between major inhabited worlds, even if
they are sectors apart, might take only a few hours,
while travel between minor planets, even if they are in
close proximity, might take weeks — sometimes it's
quicker to plot a hyperspace journey from an isolated
planet to a major planet (using a quick trade route) and
then travel from the major planet to the isolated planet
that is your goal — the ship is physically travelling
farther, but it can save time by moving at higher
speeds on well-established routes.

Which isn't at all how your network works.

Quote:

As to often contradicted, care to name examples other than the Gazetteer?

Yes, several examples in 2E and 2R&E. For instance, the qute I gave above mentions travelling to planets "sectors apart" in only a few hours and planets that are in close proximity taking weeks.

Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

Okay, I have the pragraphs you selectively cite in front of me.
It says: "Standard restock includes replenishment of all necessary fluids, including lubricating fluids, coolants, oxygen and other life support gases, basic protiens for food converter systems (...).

Then there is a period. The next sentence proceeds:

"Waste removal, decontamination and landing gear stress tests are also performed automatically, and are covered by the docking fees." (highlight mine).

Then there is a next paragraph, which mentions the filters and what-not in the 'standard maintenance package'. It does not say that this is part of the standard restock, or if it paid for by the docking fee.

Honestly, I think we're splitting hairs at this point. I agree that the standard maintenance package includes stuff that is not related to the amount of passengers actually on the ship. However, because sometimes the same model of ship can have both a passenger version and a freight version, I think that the YT-1300 would require the same amount of maintenance regardless of whether it is the YT-1300p or YT-1300f.

But, anyway, to get us past this dispute, let's just agree on your capacity stipulation, because that is the letter in the book, and, as I mentioned, this is the 'official rules' forum.

atgxtg wrote:

First off taking a liner would require the character to pay liner rates, and then wait for the liner to make the trip, and he might have to wait for days or weeks for the next run would also have to put up with any stops the liner would make along he way. A tramp freigher could leave at any time,fly direct, and would be cheaper to book passage on.

Well, as far as liner rates, they are also given by the Sourcebook. Luxury liner is 1000cr., and a "No Frills" liner is 500cr., multiplied by the type of route, not distance.

Okay, so you have to wait for a liner. At the same time, you would have to find and locate a Tramp Freighter captain that was willing to make a certain trip. At least the liner can be trusted to take a certain route at a certain time. Between places like Bespin and Correllia, it can be presumed that there will be a very frequent liner. My point hinges directly on the idea that in places where the liners will not come by frequently (or at all), the tramp freighter has a niche, so please don't use that argument against my point.

Back to analogies, we're talking about taxis vs. buses. How many people take taxis for long hauls? Greyhound buses them farther for much cheaper. However, not all places have bus service, and taxis are the only option - but taxis charge a helluva lot more.

atgxtg wrote:

There probably isn't a FedEx in the Star Wars Universe (FedEx didn't really kick off until airfreight and container ships killed off most the tramp freighter business in the real world) and the tramp freighters fill the FedEx niche.

Why shouldn't there be an ImpEx? Why should liners and haulers not have killed of tramp freighter business between the highly populated systems? Sure, when it comes to getting that package directly to your door, it takes a smaller vessel - and usually the FedEx trucks are actually independently owned by the driver, who is a contractor. The local FedEx guy is a tramp freighter captain, and he makes his living because he's only doing the local stuff, rather than the long hauls.

atgxtg wrote:

Yes, but you rarely have \someone chartering a ship. If a freighter is hired to haul cargo, they get paid the delivery rate, if they are taking passengers then the passengers pay the passage fee.

But that presumes that the tramp freighter just happens to be going where you want to go. That improbability seems at least as much of a hassle as having to wait for the next liner to come by, which you can travel on for 500cr. (or 100 cr. if you go steerage).

atgxtg wrote:

Quote:

If Tim Zhn is okay, I take it that the Han Solo books are in, since they have a sorucebook. How about the Rogue Sqaudron series? Those fighters make good time.

If you want to take the time and think those sources are authoritative, be my guest. I just mentioned it because I heard it on the audiobook the other day. Have you come up with any other adventure-based travel times?

Quote:

Yes, they're rough guidelines. 'Rough' means 'margin of error', not 'flat wrong'. Rough means that it should be somewhere within the range given.

No, rough means that the times give shouldn't be taken to heart. For instant a rough estimate for a repair that is between $100-$500 does not ensure that the actual cost will be somewhere between $100 and $500. It could be more or less.[/quote]Yes, but your assertion is that the guidelines are manifestly and consistently at odds with the guidelines. It's not a question of reliability, it's a question of validity.

atgxtg wrote:

No. The network is not implied. According to WEG, there was no network. You an inferiing a network becuase because you are a network analyst and this is your pet theory.

2R&E page 119 wrote:

Travel times are dependent upon how far apart the systems are, whether the route must go around any obstacles, and how often the route is used. Well-travelled routes are much faster, while barely-used routes take much longer even if they don't cover much distance.

Not that nothing there says or implies network. Just that well traveled routes are faster.

2R&E page 119 wrote:

Travel between major inhabited worlds, even if they are sectors apart, might take only a few hours, while travel between minor planets, even if they are in close proximity, might take weeks — sometimes it's quicker to plot a hyperspace journey from an isolated planet to a major planet (using a quick trade route) and then travel from the major planet to the isolated planet that is your goal — the ship is physically travelling farther, but it can save time by moving at higher speeds on well-established routes.

Which isn't at all how your network works.

I'm starting to think that you are purposefully misunderstanding me to drive home your point. This is exactly how my network works!

atgxtg wrote:

Quote:

As to often contradicted, care to name examples other than the Gazetteer?

Yes, several examples in 2E and 2R&E. For instance, the qute I gave above mentions travelling to planets "sectors apart" in only a few hours and planets that are in close proximity taking weeks.

So? That's is just about the time-scale that I use - you cross the entire galaxy in 30 hours. Where's the "close proximity taking weeks" in your version of travel times??

Fallon Kell
Commodore

Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

Grimace wrote:

Still, 30 hours does not fit into the rough estimate of weeks to months cross-galactic travel time. Mikael's travel times are even significantly shy of these estimates.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

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Grimace
Captain
Captain

Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:34 am Post subject:

Quote:

It strike me as odd that you would throw out the only hard and fast travel times in the rulebook (the Gazeteer) in favor oof some guidelines that were presented as rough guidelines, and which were often contradicted within the core rulebook.

No more odd than your continuing desire to argue with numerous people who feel differently about what travel times should be in Star Wars.

I've never been much of a "chart" guy. I looked at that chart in the book and felt the numbers seemed rather off. I read the text underneath it and found a good way to extrapolate the whole galaxy (which, at the time, had very few "known" planets in it...not at all like what we have now). I worked it so that the major hyperspace lanes (Corellian Run, Hydian Way, etc.) allowed faster movement, secondary lanes had slower movement, but still modestly quick. Tertiary lines were basically the "local" routes for system to system. These were slow, but not the absolute slowest. The absolute slowest was reserved for those scouts that went out into the unknown regions and blazed the trails for others to eventually follow.

As more and more material and more and more planets came out, I just kept with the same method I had used for years in my Star Wars game. No need to change it if it worked.

Plus, I never once had my players complain that we weren't playing Star Wars due to the longer travel times.

As far as this thread goes, it looks like the topic is going nowhere fast and its simply devolving into a nitpick-fest and tit for tat quote debate. Why don't you just assume that a majority of the people aren't going to change their mind and either assist by giving useful travel times based on published material or stop with the bickering and move on to another topic.

Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:18 am Post subject:

Grimace wrote:

As far as this thread goes, it looks like the topic is going nowhere fast and its simply devolving into a nitpick-fest and tit for tat quote debate. Why don't you just assume that a majority of the people aren't going to change their mind and either assist by giving useful travel times based on published material or stop with the bickering and move on to another topic.

This is very sage advice. I think I will take you up on it and not respond to my counterpart's forthcoming refutation. I will, however, gladly learn what other official travel times he might dig up from the adventures.

Thus far, however, it doesn't seem like the adventures are a coherent source of good travel times because so many of them were published before the galaxy really took shape in terms of where stuff was. At least the regional charts from GG6, the Elrood and Kathol books, Far Orbit, etc. decided where a few things were in relation to others. That makes them far more useful for scaling.

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