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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

Assumin the captain is trading in foodstuffs, and can buy them @ H/1710 credits and sell them at H/1890 credits, he would need to buy at least 8 tons to make a profit. And that would require that he have 13680 credits on hand to buy cargo.

I guess that's why they would be trading in goods with more transporting value than food.

I think it fits the gameworld that the life of a tramp freighter is hardscrabble, and that they engage in adventures in search of desperate income (or just to save their lives at the cost of not paying the crime boss on time).

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Offical Travel Times

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

Indeed. Kwenn is a legitimate point for your interpretation.

According to TEA Kwenn is, however, nowhere near the Corellian Run. It's close to Kashyyyk, so it is closer to the Perlemian Trade Route.

When dealing with star systems "near" is a realtive term. Kwenn might be closer to the Perlemain run, but the Perlemain run doesn't go towards Tatooine.

More travel times (BTW, I am listing supplments that don't give times too, so that way they can be "crossed off the list" and you won't need to check them):

Strike Force Shtinipole: N/A (all action takes place in the same system)

Game Chanbers of Questal: N?A- Adventure takes place of Questal.

Battle for the Golden Sun: N/A-Entire adventure takes place of Sedris. However, the adventure does put a crimp in the Network concpetion, as the Empire discovers the system by accident. The rebles didn't seem to have any problems "finding a route".

Politics of Contraband:
Ratine Space Station to Kween Space Station (Tamain Sector/Outer Rim/N-19) to Kwenn Space Station (Kastolar Secotor/Mid-Rim/R-10) takes 6 days
While Ratine Isn't listed in the navicomp, Kirdo and Sevarcos are both within the same grid reference and have travel times of 21.34 days, and 19.76 days respectively.

Celanon (D'Astan Sector/Outer Rim/O-6) to Isen (D'Astan Sector/Outer Rim/N-5) takes "several hours" (not great but it's something. Isen isn't in the naviucomp (yet) , however Ciutric in in the same grid as Isen and by the navicomp is 15.33 days/368hours from Celenon.

Quote:

Definitely. I also look forward to the other findings from the adventures.

Okay, will do, and will do.

Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Offical Travel Times

atgxtg wrote:

Battle for the Golden Sun: N/A-Entire adventure takes place of Sedris. However, the adventure does put a crimp in the Network concpetion, as the Empire discovers the system by accident. The rebles didn't seem to have any problems "finding a route".

We also know that the Rebels have Wookkiee astrogation maps that are better than what the Empire has.

atgxtg wrote:

Celanon (D'Astan Sector/Outer Rim/O-6) to Isen (D'Astan Sector/Outer Rim/N-5) takes "several hours" (not great but it's something. Isen isn't in the naviucomp (yet) , however Ciutric in in the same grid as Isen and by the navicomp is 15.33 days/368hours from Celenon.

When I type in Ciutric-Celanon, I get 3.46 days. Are the PCs using a ship with a slow hyperdrive?

When you choose Ciutric, and look on the Outer Rim sectors map, you're choosing a system that is at the other end of the sector from where Isen might be, given that it is in the D'Astan Sector. Why didn't you choose Vinsoth (23 hours to Celanon)? It would further your argument if you at least gave me the benefit of the doubt, rather than put up straw-man times.

But thank you for going through the trouble of trying to look these things up.

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Offical Travel Times

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

When I type in Ciutric-Celanon, I get 3.46 days. Are the PCs using a ship with a slow hyperdrive?

I do, too., now. I must have dod something wrong the first time around. I better raise my astrogation another pip.

Quote:

When you choose Ciutric, and look on the Outer Rim sectors map, you're choosing a system that is at the other end of the sector from where Isen might be, given that it is in the D'Astan Sector. Why didn't you choose Vinsoth (23 hours to Celanon)? It would further your argument if you at least gave me the benefit of the doubt, rather than put up straw-man times.

I was using the map given in the Atlas and looking for a system (or two) in the same general area. i'd have used something closer it I had saw it.

Still, "several hours" is certainly less than a day. Although it hardly locks things down.

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject:

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

I guess that's why they would be trading in goods with more transporting value than food.

Yes, certainly, but that is only viable if one has enough ready credits. Since the profits are on a percentage basis to make ten times the profit requires ten times the front money.

Quote:

I think it fits the gameworld that the life of a tramp freighter is hardscrabble, and that they engage in adventures in search of desperate income (or just to save their lives at the cost of not paying the crime boss on time).

Good theory. It breaks down in practice, though. Time, effort, and credits spent on adventures cut into the merchant business, making things even harder.

While looking though The Politics of Contraband, I noted that most of the smuggling adventures started In Media Res, with the Pcs having already agreed to the job, and that often, the payoff wasn't worth the revenue lost A couple of grand sounds like a good deal, until you factor in the time and costs to operate the ship, and check over the cargo situation.

.

.

Grimace
Captain
Captain

Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

JT Swift wrote:

atgxtg makes a good point. This is why I'm glad that Mikael is sticking to the longer WEG times rather then using the short times shown in the movies. ALL of the WEG trader info is callibrated for those long-@$$ WEG times. You'd have to do all sorts of tweaking to the fuel cost per hour and consumables to keep everything balanced if he used the more canonical short times.

Huh!!?? Actually the rverse is true. The overly long travel times will require changing the costs just to make merchant runs profitable, and the harder it becomes to make time for adventures. A freighter captain not only needs to buy low and sell high, but do so in a short enough run to be profitable.

Funny, I ran Star Wars for over a decade using the slower times, and running merchant games, and I never had a problem with the times or the amounts people made. As JT Swift pointed out, the adventures and prices are geared towards the values in the books, which are longer times. You trim things down to hours to cross the entire galaxy, you shoot all the material the pieces and have to recalculate the values of everything published.

No thanks. I'll stick with the longer times.

Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

I guess that's why they would be trading in goods with more transporting value than food.

Yes, certainly, but that is only viable if one has enough ready credits. Since the profits are on a percentage basis to make ten times the profit requires ten times the front money.

Agreed. To buy and sell, they would have to have start-up capital. Thankfully, Tramp Freighters offers opportunities that do not need large sums of start-up capital.

atgxtg wrote:

Quote:

Good theory. It breaks down in practice, though. Time, effort, and credits spent on adventures cut into the merchant business, making things even harder.
While looking though The Politics of Contraband, I noted that most of the smuggling adventures started In Media Res, with the Pcs having already agreed to the job, and that often, the payoff wasn't worth the revenue lost A couple of grand sounds like a good deal, until you factor in the time and costs to operate the ship, and check over the cargo situation.

To get back to the original argument - travel times - it seems like the time it takes to travel is tangential to the costs argument. The main factor connected to the transaction cost of travel is consumables. In your calculation you seem to draw on the little example paragraph of the Twi'lek Dancer on pg. 31. However, that figure presumes six passengers. But when hauling goods that don't consume, for a crew of two, the per-day trip cost is 20cr. in consumables. Everything else is based on costs that are not connected to the travel time. So, from the figures you mention, travel times are a minimal transaction cost.

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:09 am Post subject:

Grimace wrote:

Funny, I ran Star Wars for over a decade using the slower times, and running merchant games, and I never had a problem with the times or the amounts people made.

How could you have used the slower times, when they didn't exist back then? Mikhael's navicomp is a new development, as are his slower travel times.

Quote:

As JT Swift pointed out, the adventures and prices are geared towards the values in the books, which are longer times.

Not at all. The Gazeteer were around since first edtion as were the times in the supplments. And they tend to be signficantly shorter thanthe times given in the navicomp.

Quote:

You trim things down to hours to cross the entire galaxy, you shoot all the material the pieces and have to recalculate the values of everything published.

Not at all. Buying and selling prices are not based off travel times. The primary expenses for running a ship are mostly "per jump". That is docking fees and hyperdrive maintenance.

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:47 am Post subject:

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

Agreed. To buy and sell, they would have to have start-up capital. Thankfully, Tramp Freighters offers opportunities that do not need large sums of start-up capital.

Drop point delivery. But that would have an effect on the final price, and restrict trade. For example, an average payment for for a delivery if 7.5 Credits per ton per day. So if a run took a freighter 60 days to deliver a cargo, the freighter captain would be paid about 460 credits per ton for the cargo and the final selling price for that cargo would need to be increased by 450 credits/ton.

[

Quote:

The resocking fees indlude things other than just food and air for the crew. And the price is based on the total number of people the ship can support, not how many people are actually aboard. So, just having a crew of 2 doesn't mean you only have to pay 20 cr/day.

It is sort of like a car. If a car has just one person in it or 4, it will still use the same amount of fuel, and the same amount of wear and tear.

Quote:

Everything else is based on costs that are not connected to the travel time. So, from the figures you mention, travel times are a minimal transaction cost.

Not at all. Several of the expenses are fixed on a monthly basis. For instance, restocking fees, ship payments, and crew salaries (if any). The longer it takes to make a run, the fewer runs can be made in a month, and the higher the operational costs per run.

For instance, let's say you have a YT-1300 freighter, and that each month you have to restock the ship (8x10x30=2400 credits) and pay 2500 crdits to a crime boss. So every month the ship must make 4900 credits ust to cover these two expenses. Now if the ship canonly do one run a month, it must make 4900 credits profit just to cover those two expenses. But, if the ship can do 5 runs, it only needs to make 980 credits profit on each run to keep the ship restocked and the crime boss of thier backs.

More Offical Times:
I looked through Starfall, Otherspace, Otherspace II, the Isis Coodinates, Domain of Evil and Supernova, and the only useful travel time in the lot was in Supernova.

Demophon (Core/M-10) to Mowgle (Core/M-10) takes 1 day, 3 hours (27 hours). Mowgle isn't in the navicomp, and I'm not surre exactly where Mowgle is, but travel times from Demophon to Alderaan (36,5h) and Kuat (27h) are certainly consistent with the 27h from Demophon to Mowgle.

BTW, It's a pity you don't consider the Clow Wars TV series. This yyear's openingespisodes really back up shorter travel times, with the Republic managing to get two armies to Mon Calamari in short order.

Bren
Vice Admiral

Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject:

[quote="atgxtg"]It is sort of like a car. If a car has just one person in it or 4, it will still use [almost] the same amount of fuel, and [virtually] the same amount of wear and tear. Fixed that for you. I see the restocking fees as similar to paying for air for your car's tires. Places that charge* generally charge a flat minimum payment for air (based on time). Which is usually enough time to top off all 4 tires. But if one or more tires are a bit low it is only enough time to fill up 2-3 tires. And if one tire is very low flat it may only be enough time for 1 tire. I think of restocking like that. As long as the ship has only normal use, it is the normal flat price whether you need it all or not. If the ship has had excessive use - over loading the passenger capacity or going longer than the normal time limit for consumables then the cost will be higher. * Based on my experience in the US and the UK. If you live somewhere else, your experience may differ.

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject:

[quote="Bren"]

Fixed that for you. Wink

For a car,it isn't the mass carried that matters, but the force required to overcome wind resistance.

For a spacecraft it is mostly about mass, and your correction is is quite correct. 300kg either way makes little difference when you are moving several hundred tons around.

Quote:

I see the restocking fees as similar to paying for air for your car's tires. Places that charge* generally charge a flat minimum payment for air (based on time). Which is usually enough time to top off all 4 tires. But if one or more tires are a bit low it is only enough time to fill up 2-3 tires. And if one tire is very low flat it may only be enough time for 1 tire.

I think of restocking like that. As long as the ship has only normal use, it is the normal flat price whether you need it all or not. If the ship has had excessive use - over loading the passenger capacity or going longer than the normal time limit for consumables then the cost will be higher.

That's neat, but not how it is written up in GG6. There it is listed as 10cr/person the ship can carry/per day. And it reflects more than just the needs of the crew. I wished they had differentated etween ship reqirements and crew/passenger requirments, but they didn't.

Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

The resocking fees indlude things other than just food and air for the crew. And the price is based on the total number of people the ship can support, not how many people are actually aboard. So, just having a crew of 2 doesn't mean you only have to pay 20 cr/day.
...
Not at all. Several of the expenses are fixed on a monthly basis. For instance, restocking fees, ship payments, and crew salaries (if any). The longer it takes to make a run, the fewer runs can be made in a month, and the higher the operational costs per run.

Yes, there are the per-month costs and these will certainly be hurt by longer travel times. I accept that. And, I can also accept that the 'consumables' include things that are not 1:1 related to the amount of beings on the ship. However, it seems like the calculation you use to arrive at the 400cr. is from an example that does use that 1:1 relationship. So, if you have a different calculus other than the Twi'lek Dancer example, could you detail which method you're drawing the 400cr. from?

atgxtg wrote:

Demophon (Core/M-10) to Mowgle (Core/M-10) takes 1 day, 3 hours (27 hours). Mowgle isn't in the navicomp, and I'm not surre exactly where Mowgle is, but travel times from Demophon to Alderaan (36,5h) and Kuat (27h) are certainly consistent with the 27h from Demophon to Mowgle.

I think it's also worthwhile to note where Demophon and Alderaan are located in comparison to one another in the network. While they are in the same square, they are on completely different routes. So, because of my limited-density network, you actually have to go by way of Brentaal in order to go from Demophon to Alderaan. That's is why it takes so long to get from Demophon to Alderaan in my system.

Anyway, I think this illustrates that my sense of travel time scale is not at horrendous odds with that particular datapoint. Thank you for pointing it out.

atgxtg wrote:

BTW, It's a pity you don't consider the Clow Wars TV series. This yyear's openingespisodes really back up shorter travel times, with the Republic managing to get two armies to Mon Calamari in short order.

I've only just started watching the Clone Wars. Though I've not paid too close attention to the suggested travel times (also, I'm not up to the current season yet), I imagine that they do support your time scale rather than mine.

Bren
Vice Admiral

Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

I wished they had differentated etween ship reqirements and crew/passenger requirments, but they didn't.

I think we can all agree that Star Wars doesn't aim to be realistic (even from a Sci-Fi, FTL POV). But it doesn't seem difficult to tweak the restocking costs to a fixed base fee plus a variable based on usage.

I've never bothered to do so since of the four groups of tramp freighter characters I've GMed for (1) works for the Rebels so they are subsidized and thus aren't interested in/don't need to tracking real costs, (2) is headed by a player who was only intermittently available to play so his ship just drops in when he is back in the country, (3) started tracking costs but two of the key players moved away so that group stalled out, and (4) the longest running group - they just want to have fun adventures and aren't really interested in life in a sandbox or tracking exact costs. They are happy to chase after whatever work/hook the adventure needs. I am going to try adding in the opportunity to select cargoes and track costs to see if they find that fun, but I only give it a 40% chance of approval. Wink

atgxtg
Rear Admiral

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject:

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:

[]Yes, there are the per-month costs and these will certainly be hurt by longer travel times.

I'm not so sure if "hurt" is the right term. I think Captains will still have viable routes, but that they end up being shorter. What longer travel times do is restrct how far a given product will be distrubuted.

BTW, That is also why travel times can be changed without destyoing everything in the Tramp Freighter rules. Fast times just means that a captain has more markets to choose from.

Quote:

I accept that. And, I can also accept that the 'consumables' include things that are not 1:1 related to the amount of beings on the ship. However, it seems like the calculation you use to arrive at the 400cr. is from an example that does use that 1:1 relationship. So, if you have a different calculus other than the Twi'lek Dancer example, could you detail which method you're drawing the 400cr. from?

No, I'm using the same rules from Page 31 of GG6 that were used in the example given for the Twi'lek Dancer. . That is base fee* total of crew and passenger capacity *days.

Since the base restocking fee is usually 10 credits, a YT-1300 (Crew 2, Passers 6) costs 80 credits per day to restock. So 30 days tims 80/day =2400 credits.But, I messed up and forgot to use a 35 day month (Star Wars) and so it should have been 2800 credits. So the ship would need to make another 400 cr/month to make ends meet.

Quote:

Anyway, I think this illustrates that my sense of travel time scale is not at horrendous odds with that particular datapoint. Thank you for pointing it out.

I have to be fair and report all the data I find, not just the stuff that supports my view.

Quote:

Yes, the do. Plius with our "debate" I7ve been more alert to such references that usual. In the opeing episode the heroes are on Mon Calamari and are promised (and recieve) clone troops, who arrive "by the end of the day".

Not too much later, the Republic sends more troops (Gungans) and had to get a Venator-class SD to Naboo to do it. And the flow of events implies that this all happens the same day.

So it really looks like the ultra fast travel times are what Lucasfilm intended.

Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

No, I'm using the same rules from Page 31 of GG6 that were used in the example given for the Twi'lek Dancer. . That is base fee* total of crew and passenger capacity *days.
Since the base restocking fee is usually 10 credits, a YT-1300 (Crew 2, Passers 6) costs 80 credits per day to restock. So 30 days tims 80/day =2400 credits. But, I messed up and forgot to use a 35 day month (Star Wars) and so it should have been 2800 credits. So the ship would need to make another 400 cr/month to make ends meet.

Okay, so we're on the same page. GG6 calculates per-time consumables strictly in a 1:1 linear relationship with the number of crew + passengers. I actually agree with you that there should be a more complex relationship that takes into account resources consumed by the ship more-or-less irrespective of the number of beings aboard.

I guess the question is to what degree those costs are effectively negligible in terms of travel-time opportunity cost. For simplicity, let's just stick with the GG6 rule and example, so that we keep it canon. So, there is a 2800/month credit cost in consumables when carrying 8 passengers. According to the GG6 rules (with which we both do not agree), there would be a (10*2*35=)700/month cost for just the 2-person crew.

Now, I've accepted several of your terms - I understand that there are economic costs to longer travel times, and that the per-month (salaries and debt-retirement) fees enter into that cost.
Let's see if you will be generous is accepting some of mine that mitigate the per-month cost due to longer travel times. For starters, the docking fees. The longer one is taking during trips, the smaller the portion of the month one is spending at 50-150cr/day sitting at a starport. Secondly, because each hyperspace jump takes longer, the longer one can go without paying for the 1000-credit maintenance overhaul.

So, let's say that the average tramp-freighter trip in your conception is 1-day and mine is 1 week. Layovers are 2 days. I'll calculate your 2500/month loan-shark cost (, 20cr./ consumables when in transit, 2-day starport layovers (@ 100cr./day) and 50cr./jump in overhaul costs.

So, with 1-day jumps, you get (35 rounded up to 36 days/month) 12 jumps.
you have to pay per-month:
Consumables = (35 rounded up to 36/3=12*20=) 240 credits
Loan shark = 2500
Maintenance overhaul = 50*12 = 600
Starport docking fees = 100*24 = 2400
Total = 5740 (excluding crew salaries). That means you have to make 478cr. per jump.

Assuming 5-day week jumps, you get 35/5=7. Let's round that to 5 days of travel and 2 days of layover, meaning you get 5 jumps per month.
Consumables = (25*20=) 250 credits
Loan shark = 2500
Maintenance overhaul = 50*5 = 250
Starport docking fees = 100*10 = 1000
Total = 4000 (excluding crew salaries). That means you have to make 800 per jump.

Once you take the loan shark out of the equation, 1-day trips go for 270cr./trip, and 5-day trips go for 300cr./trip. That narrows the margins considerably.

So, yes, you have to make more money per trip under my longer travel times, but it's not an amount that is prohibitive.

atgxtg wrote:

So it really looks like the ultra fast travel times are what Lucasfilm intended.

I'll accept that this is what Lucasarts intends. I don't think it has always intended anything beyond making for good stories on a televised/movie medium. Our medium (roleplaying) is different.

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