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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14088 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:49 am Post subject: |
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I have done it several times.. Glop grenades, smoke grenades, stun grenades.. Not yet had an enemy use frag grenades in that situation though. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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I've also always felt that grenades are handled pretty stupidly in D6. Grenade explosions should be HARDER to dodge than blaster shots since they can hit you just by being close. After the roll to "hit" is made to determine where the grenade lands (and any scatter has been resolved, I believe that the grenade itself should have a dodge difficulty based on it's blast radius (perhaps). And the relative success or failure of the dodge roll will reduce the amount of damage you take relative to the max possible damage (10D, in the case of a thermal detonator). For example, let's say that a thermal detonator has a blast difficulty of 20. A defender would roll dodge, and subtract 20 from the roll. Whatever is left is compared to a chart that might look something like this:
0 or less: 10D
1-5: 8D
6-10: 6D
11-15: 4D
16-20: 2D
21 or more: no damage.
This rule would actually work really well with a house rule I wrote for cooking grenades (the +10 difficulty to dodge would be added to the grenade's own difficulty in this case, making it 30, instead of 20). |
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jmanski Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: Kansas
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Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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How about making the difficulty based on range band, but on the scale of:
Heroic (0-2)
Very Difficult (4)
Difficult (6)
Moderate (10)
That way it is harder to dodge but still manageable, and the GM can add modifiers. _________________ Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
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Quetzacotl Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Posts: 281 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Wouldn't that be another "all or nothing" mechanic?
Either you completely avoid the damage, or you get the full damage.
Naaman's idea sounds good, decreasing the damage based on how good the dodge roll was. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14088 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Though his rule does not take into account the move rate of the target.. not all races have a base 10 move.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Tupteq Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 285 Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:13 am Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Though his rule does not take into account the move rate of the target.. not all races have a base 10 move.. |
Then maybe a modified version of Dromdarr_Alark's rule:
If dodge is successful you jump half of your Move away, +1m for each 5 points of success. Maximum distance you may move this way is your full Move. If a cover is in your reach, you may slip behind it.
After you decide where to move, damage is calculated basing on distance from explosion and eventual cover(s) in between.
This way your dodge depends highly on Move, indirectly on DEX (dodge is a DEX skill), dodge success level counts and terrain characteristics may be used. All factors are taken into account and there's no need of additional table, no complicated calculations, no artificial stats need to be introduced (like dodge difficulties). All you need to know is already here: dodge skill, blast radius, Move and combat area. |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Tupteq wrote: | garhkal wrote: | Though his rule does not take into account the move rate of the target.. not all races have a base 10 move.. |
Then maybe a modified version of Dromdarr_Alark's rule:
If dodge is successful you jump half of your Move away, +1m for each 5 points of success. Maximum distance you may move this way is your full Move. If a cover is in your reach, you may slip behind it.
After you decide where to move, damage is calculated basing on distance from explosion and eventual cover(s) in between.
This way your dodge depends highly on Move, indirectly on DEX (dodge is a DEX skill), dodge success level counts and terrain characteristics may be used. All factors are taken into account and there's no need of additional table, no complicated calculations, no artificial stats need to be introduced (like dodge difficulties). All you need to know is already here: dodge skill, blast radius, Move and combat area. |
That's not too bad. I'd also say that if somebody moves more than a half move, it should count as an action. That way a guy who runs out the door or behind a rock 8 meters away actually take some time to do so and uses up his movement for the round.
That would help to pin the enemy down. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:57 am Post subject: |
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The problem with using move stat to avoid a grenade is that it would require you to adjuticate the amount of time left on the fuse. If there is no time left when the grenade lands, all that matters is how good the dodge roll is. Since "dodge" represents your ability to "dive for cover" (the rules actually articulate something to that effect) using the move stat is, in my opinion, overly techical, unless you want to just add a bonus to dodge based on tthe character's move rate (a move of 11 might provide a +2 bonus, as an example).
But in reality, the farther the target, the sooner you need to throw it. But if you want to gently roll it, or toss it under hand or chuck it into the third story window from accross the street, the timing of the throw will be different. This, in my opinion is covered in the thrower's skill roll, and a scatter result couls simply represent the grenade detonating before reaching, or after passing over a target. So, if it were my call, only the dodge skill would make a difference.
One caveat would be if the defender notices the thrower preparing to throw, he may use Running as a reaction to move toward cover, and perhaps gain a bonus on the dodge roll... but that needs some more thought and development if I were to try and use it.
Just my $0.02 |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:03 am Post subject: |
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[quote="atgxtg"] Tupteq wrote: |
That's not too bad. I'd also say that if somebody moves more than a half move, it should count as an action. That way a guy who runs out the door or behind a rock 8 meters away actually take some time to do so and uses up his movement for the round.
That would help to pin the enemy down. |
According to my training/experience, a grenade will either make the enemy charge you, or run the heck away. If the first one doesn't kill them, get ready for a barrage of bullets and a wall of soldiers advancing on you (or you on them: being inside grenade range is the last place you want to fight, since the can be lobbed over your cover, etc.
Last edited by Naaman on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dromdarr_Alark Commander
Joined: 07 Apr 2013 Posts: 426 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | The problem with using move stat to avoid a grenade is that it would require you to adjudicate the amount of time left on the fuse. If there is no time left when the grenade lands, all that matters is how good the dodge roll is. Since "dodge" represents your ability to "dive for cover" (the rules actually articulate something to that effect) using the move stat is, in my opinion, overly technical, unless you want to just add a bonus to dodge based on the character's move rate (a move of 11 might provide a +2 bonus, as an example).
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This.
I don't see the movement rating fitting into this at all. The character is diving away, not scampering out of the blast. If my players decide to use their movement rating to dodge, then they would have to do so at the beginning of the turn, using the full dodge rules.
I am keeping it simple while still making realistic sense. I see no need to make things too complicated.
But of course, you should do whatever is best for your gaming group. _________________ "I still wouldn't have a roll for it - but that's just how I roll." |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:07 am Post subject: |
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LOL You corrected my spelling |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14088 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: |
That's not too bad. I'd also say that if somebody moves more than a half move, it should count as an action. That way a guy who runs out the door or behind a rock 8 meters away actually take some time to do so and uses up his movement for the round.
That would help to pin the enemy down. |
Well the dodge itself is an action, and it already incorporates moving.
Quote: | I don't see the movement rating fitting into this at all. The character is diving away, not scampering out of the blast. |
I disagree. If we are talking about how far out of the blast zone one can get with a good dodge, we do need to look at their move.
Most grenades have around a 0-3/6/10/14 or so blast radius, so someone with only an 8 move who is at 'ground zero' for the blast can only realistically get to the third blast zone, no matter their dodge roll. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Esoomian High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 Posts: 6207 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | I disagree. If we are talking about how far out of the blast zone one can get with a good dodge, we do need to look at their move.
Most grenades have around a 0-3/6/10/14 or so blast radius, so someone with only an 8 move who is at 'ground zero' for the blast can only realistically get to the third blast zone, no matter their dodge roll. |
Well they can always do a double move in one round which puts them at 16 or out of the radius. _________________ Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Not to mention that all out speed puts them at quadruple their move. I know that all out speed prevents dodging, but the capability to move 32m per round (reduced to a smaller time over smaller distance) could represent the dodge roll. Anyway, however a GM decides to implement it, the important thing is that it is useable and does not detract from the flow of play. |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: |
Well the dodge itself is an action, and it already incorporates moving. |
No it isn't it is a reaction. The difference is in how the turn is sequenced. As a reaction the character rolls his dodge against the greande and then he gets to take his normal action on his turn. He doesn't even have to move. In essence the dodge is like a saving throw.
On the other hand if the dodge counted as a move action, he'd be diving for cover rather than just standing there shooting. So he wound spend his next action moving instead of attacking.
garhkal wrote: |
I disagree. If we are talking about how far out of the blast zone one can get with a good dodge, we do need to look at their move.
Most grenades have around a 0-3/6/10/14 or so blast radius, so someone with only an 8 move who is at 'ground zero' for the blast can only realistically get to the third blast zone, no matter their dodge roll. |
Yeah, although cover is a big part of it. If there is a brick wall 3m away a character doesn't need to be able to move 15m.
I think we can account for the time factor with the greande roll of the attacker. A higher roll would mean that the defenders don't have as much time left to get out of the way before the greande goes off. |
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