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Matthias777
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 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I know that this is from something further back in the conversation, but the fact that Luke is wearing black came up. I just wanted to explain that for anyone who might want to know. This is from p. 248 of Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays (Rodis-Jamero was the costume designer for RotJ):
| Quote: | | Nilo Rodis-Jamero: "I remember George telling me that in samurai movies costumes say a lot about the characters; the way the costume is folded, the way it's tucked in is very important. So I thought, Luke has become a Jedi; he is more distant, more serious. I thought, What do gunslingers wear when they mean business? They wear black. If you look at Luke's costume, it's all derivative of Japanese designs...Ben also wore some kind of Japanese kimono. So I tailored the costume in a way that would allow Luke to fight in the action sequences." |
The color choice had nothing to do with him being evil or treading closer to the Dark Side, it was meant to show that he "meant business".
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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And in Japan, IIR, white, not black, is the color for funerals. So white as a sinister color for stormtroopers works for me.  |
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MacRauri
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Joined: 26 Nov 2011
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Location: Twin Cities MN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Shut your shameless mouth! Be quiet, or men will hear you and die of fright. In the rottenness and injustice and poverty of this world the RAW has been the one precious consolation for the honest man, the wronged man. True or false--what do I care! It’s enough if the world is saved! |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | And seeing as how WEG is supposed to be an accurate reflection of the films, not the other way around, they should have done a much better job of it. |
This is your opinion. One not universally shared. In my opinion, the WEG rules are an attempt to allow one to play characters in a roleplaying game in the Star Wars universe in a style similar to that of the original films. Since the rules are attempting to create a roleplaying game matters of rules, game balance, etc. may trump the narrative concerns and the experience of watching a movie.
While I am familiar with the distinction between primary and secondary sources, that distinction it is only relevant if we all agree that the point of the game is to simulate the movies (I don't). |
Don't misquote me. I did not say simulate; I said reflection; specifically, that the rules as to how the universe works in the RAW should mirror the way the universe works in the films. For example, if a Force power works a certain way in the films, it should work the same way in the RAW. If a Jedi is allowed to use a certain power in the films, then the RAW should allow Jedi to use the films as well. What the RAW should not do is come up with its own version of the events that twists them to suit its own ends, but that is exactly what has happened.
| Quote: | | But even if we did all agree we would have to agree on which primary source material to include (do the prequels count? what about the Clone Wars animated film? what about the Clone Wars TV shows? how about the old Droids or Ewoks TV shows and what about the infamous holiday TV special?). These are all primary source material so the issue of primary source material is not a simple one. Like the study of ancient history the question of what counts as a primary source material is not uncontroversial. |
Naturally, things are confused now. But back in the late 1980's, all WEG had as sources were the original trilogy, the two Ewok movies and the holiday special. WEG had access to the original trilogy, without the confusion and contradictions of the prequels and all the rest of the EU. The original RAW should have been faithful to what was seen in the films. Yet it was not. We here at the Rancor Pit have burned up a lot of E-paper discussing these errors in detail. You yourself have pointed out errors in various Force powers, yet you seem unable to consider the possibility that the same company that made those errors in the first place might also have been in error when shaping their policy on the Force in general.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I bring this up because this is exactly the problem. The films are THE primary source when it comes to Star Wars. |
According to whom are the films the only primary source material? I know you believe this and it fits your point, but why do you think I necessarily should accept your selection of which media to include and which to exclude as definitive primary sources for a roleplaying game? |
The films are the primary source according to the definition of primary source. I cite the following quote from the University of Maryland:
"Primary sources are original materials. They are from the time period involved and have not been filtered through interpretation or evaluation. Primary sources are original materials on which other research is based. They are usually the first formal appearance of results in physical, print or electronic format. They present original thinking, report a discovery, or share new information."
The films are the original materials. They are from the time period involved, and have not been filtered through interpretation or evaluation (at least, until WEG got ahold of them). They are original materials on which other material is based. They are the first formal appearance of the material in question, and they do at least represent an original combination of thinking (even if they draw from a multitude of other sources). You seem bent on undermining my description of them as an original source, so I challenge you to find a primary source that is better suited to be a primary source for Star Wars than the original Star Wars trilogy itself.
Now, nothing says you have to use the same selection of sources as I do for your primary sources. This is, after all, a free universe, often anarchically so. But that also means I have a right to call it like I see it.[/quote]
| Quote: | | So you want to be the Inquisition to our heretical cult of WEG? |
Depends. How is the pay? Benefits? Hours?
| Quote: | | Well we could do that or we could just decide that some things are wrong even when they happen to ugly people and the morals of the WEG Jedi are superior to the Lucas Jedi and adopt the WEG morality and then try to reconcile what we see in the films in a way that preserves a better and more clear cut moral code with a clear distinction between heroes and villains. Your mileage clearly varies. |
What I was saying is that, rather than assuming that Lucas believes using Force Choke on the Gamorreans was OK because they were ugly, we should analyze the action in the films without bias as to appearance or race. Rather than saying something nasty like "Well, Lucas must be OK with bad things happening to ugly people," we should be looking at them from the Jedi perspective: as living beings. And if the films say it is OK for a Jedi to use force choke on a living being (no matter what they look like on the outside), then it should be possible in the RAW. Yet it isn't. Therefore the RAW is flawed and should be edited appropriately. YMMV.
| Quote: | | BTW describing us as "drinking the WEG Kool-Aid" is offensive. You might want to assume that other folks besides you actually watched the films and read the WEG rules and just came to a different conclusion than you did about how to best resolve the contradictions for their own game. If you are intending to offend others go right ahead and continue. But it doesn't do much to bolster your argument against the RAW or demonstrate an serious attempt to argue in good faith. |
As I said, I have the right to call it like I see it. I don't need to "assume" that other people have watched the films and read the WEG rules, because I'm pretty certain that's why we all came here in the first place. What surprises and astounds me is how many people have chosen to work from the premise that what is in WEG's multi-flawceted RAW trumps what is in the films (or at least the original three), even though the RAW would not exist without the films. I can only assume that such otherwise logical and intelligent individuals must be under some sort of outside influence to engage in such blatant willful ignorance. Therefore, "drinking the WEG Kool-Aid."
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| MacRauri wrote: | | Shut your shameless mouth! Be quiet, or men will hear you and die of fright. In the rottenness and injustice and poverty of this world the RAW has been the one precious consolation for the honest man, the wronged man. True or false--what do I care! It’s enough if the world is saved! |
Uhhhhhhh.... what?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I said reflection; specifically, that the rules as to how the universe works in the RAW should mirror the way the universe works in the films. For example, if a Force power works a certain way in the films, it should work the same way in the RAW. If a Jedi is allowed to use a certain power in the films, then the RAW should allow Jedi to use the films as well. What the RAW should not do is come up with its own version of the events that twists them to suit its own ends, but that is exactly what has happened. |
problem there C is what works for dramatic story telling in a show/film does NOT automatically mean it would also work for dramatic storytelling in a game. There are rules, balances and other factors to take into account.. The game was ment to be good v evil for the most part. Kind of hard to do that if you just up and allow some of those force powers to be used by any force user with out the DSP to reign them in.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Naturally, things are confused now. But back in the late 1980's, all WEG had as sources were the original trilogy, the two Ewok movies and the holiday special. WEG had access to the original trilogy, without the confusion and contradictions of the prequels and all the rest of the EU. The original RAW should have been faithful to what was seen in the films. Yet it was not. We here at the Rancor Pit have burned up a lot of E-paper discussing these errors in detail. You yourself have pointed out errors in various Force powers, yet you seem unable to consider the possibility that the same company that made those errors in the first place might also have been in error when shaping their policy on the Force in general. |
As said above, what works for a film does not necessarily work for a game. Take battle tech for instance.. Based in part on robotech back in the days, we had jet fighters shifting into robots (Land Air Mechs) that would shift and shoot at the same time in the cartoon. BUT for the Btech game (and to a lesser extent the rpg for robotech) the shooting had to be done separately from the shifting for those mechs.. to balance things out.
| crmcneill wrote: | | As I said, I have the right to call it like I see it. I don't need to "assume" that other people have watched the films and read the WEG rules, because I'm pretty certain that's why we all came here in the first place. What surprises and astounds me is how many people have chosen to work from the premise that what is in WEG's multi-flawceted RAW trumps what is in the films (or at least the original three), even though the RAW would not exist without the films. I can only assume that such otherwise logical and intelligent individuals must be under some sort of outside influence to engage in such blatant willful ignorance. Therefore, "drinking the WEG Kool-Aid." |
Maybe its cause to some of us it is just a game and so we look it from the eyes of gamers. In that rules may not need to mirror the films to make sense.[/quote]
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Matthias777
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, eight pages of arguing about whether the actual movie or West End Games' game based on that trilogy portrays the correct interpretation of what happened in Return of the Jedi. Before I get into this, let me first say that I have a lot of respect for the people who have posted here in this thread. I don't always agree with what you say, but I try to always read your posts with an open mind, and I generally find them to be intelligent, even if we arrive at different conclusions. That being said, you can type as many paragraphs of argument and stir up as many secondary debates as you want, but I came here to play STAR WARS, in the STAR WARS universe, using STAR WARS' version of the Force---not a role-playing game that looks similar to it, yet operates differently. The mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons, or any other RPG, for that matter, do not matter to me. I don't want to play those games, I want to play STAR WARS.
We bend over backwards to retcon everything else that has popped up since those wonderful three movies were first released, but the the final installment of the holy trilogy gets an upturned nose and eight pages of dismissal? When this thread first started, I didn't even click on it (a practice I need to get away from), because I thought, "Light Side Force Choke? What a crock. Just one more person trying to get away with using Dark Side powers without getting a Dark Side Point."
Why? Because I draw a lot of my understanding---just like you guys---from West End Games' body of work. I love West End Games. I have a ridiculous number of their Star Wars books, and have spent untold hours with a nose buried in them since my best friend first stumbled across one when we were in the fifth or sixth grade, years and years ago. I use them as a reference regularly, perhaps moreso than anything else. As I said, at first, I dismissed this thread entirely. But after this thread got up to two or three pages, my curiosity was sufficiently piqued, and I clicked on it. Reading the posts, I realized...I had been operating on a fundamental misconception. The original trilogy trumps everything else, and I had been drawing my understanding of the Force from West End Games' flawed interpretation. I felt kinda silly, actually.
Forget rules discussion for a moment. Forget how you think the Force should work. Actually, forget everything except a film from 1983 called Return of the Jedi. Before you pursue any other discussion, you have to ensure that your foundational suppositions are sound and factual, fully supported by the original work (primary source).
The only debate that makes sense to have is one about the specifics of what Luke was doing in that scene, without letting your prior conceptions (or misconceptions) cloud your viewing of the scene. Let's examine it, afresh. Really, go watch the scene. I did. Take everything else out of the picture, and just look at that scene.
Luke raises a hand toward the guard on his right. The guard raises a hand to its throat, makes gurgling noises, and backs up. Luke moves his hand toward the other guard, and that guard also makes gurgling noises, with his hand reaching to his throat, and backs up against the wall. Gurgling noises mean that they were physically choking; had he been making them think that they were choking, there would be no actual gurgling sound. Now, if you believe that he was choking the guards, guess what? It's okay for a Jedi to do choke somebody a lil' bit. It doesn't show that he killed them, doesn't show that he didn't. All we know is that a Jedi can choke people to some extent.
Whether or not that makes coming up with balanced gaming rules easier or not doesn't factor into it. We take the canon Star Wars universe, and figure out how to make rules that match the way things work in that universe. If you do it in any other order, you're not playing Star Wars; you're playing a game that is similar to Star Wars, tailored to how you would prefer it had been written. That's fine; you should play your games in whatever way brings you joy, happiness, and a fun time. Just don't tell someone else that your way is how the Star Wars universe works. I, for one, am going to try to do a better job of comparing knowledge drawn from secondary sources with the primary source, and do my best to admit that I was wrong about my prior conceptions when shown the error of my ways.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What surprises and astounds me is how many people have chosen to work from the premise that what is in WEG's multi-flawceted RAW trumps what is in the films (or at least the original three), even though the RAW would not exist without the films. I can only assume that such otherwise logical and intelligent individuals must be under some sort of outside influence to engage in such blatant willful ignorance. Therefore, "drinking the WEG Kool-Aid." |
You seem to be willfully misinterpretting and ignoring what I and others are saying so there is little point in my providing a point-by-point rebuttal of your reply.
The rules are the rules to a game inspired by three movies. If you don't like the rules for your game, then change them. Expecting everyone to want to play the exact same game as you seems surprising to me given the wealth of contrary points of view. Insisting that anyone who doesn't want to play your game must therefore be under the effects of mind altering cult influences is moronic. Likening us to a bunch of suicidal brainwashed cultists is insulting. If you can't be more polite and discuss the matter in good faith, you should consider getting even more sleep. |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | problem there C is what works for dramatic story telling in a show/film does NOT automatically mean it would also work for dramatic storytelling in a game. There are rules, balances and other factors to take into account.. |
The arguement should have stopped here really..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | problem there C is what works for dramatic story telling in a show/film does NOT automatically mean it would also work for dramatic storytelling in a game. There are rules, balances and other factors to take into account.. The game was ment to be good v evil for the most part. Kind of hard to do that if you just up and allow some of those force powers to be used by any force user with out the DSP to reign them in. |
That's not the point. The OT was about good vs. evil as well, and yet Lucas still allowed the Jedi to use Force Choke and to charge masses of armed guards and slice and dice them with a lightsaber. Matthias put it very succinctly, so I will paraphrase him; diverging from the films (insofar as how things work in the SWU), in any way, shape or form, and for any reason, means that we are no longer playing Star Wars, but now playing someone else's version of what they thought Star Wars should be. In essence, you are trying to justify WEG changing Star Wars for their own reasons: because rules, balances and other factors would've made it too difficult to stay faithful to the original material.
As for the DSP argument, I would respond by saying that there are ways around that issue. I have my Willpower rule, ZzaphodD has his Dark Side pips, and I'm sure others on this list have their own ideas for how to resolve the discrepancy. If we can come up with these ideas on our own, for free, then WEG, who was getting paid a lot of money to produce an authentic recreation of the SWU in RPG format, could've done something other than ignore the problem and hope it went away.
| Quote: | | Maybe its cause to some of us it is just a game and so we look it from the eyes of gamers. In that rules may not need to mirror the films to make sense. |
You're right. It is just a game. But if the game is going to be called Star Wars, complete with the official logo, and the approval of Lucasfilm, then it should've stayed faithful to the material it was claiming as a source. The rules may not need to mirror the films to make sense, but they do need to mirror the films and make sense if they want to use the name Star Wars.
Now, let me be clear. I am not saying that everyone has to game this way just because I say so. My contention all along has been that the original RAW is flawed in a variety of ways, and is therefore not an accurate reflection of the Star Wars universe. If that doesn't matter to you, and you want to keep playing in your own version of the SWU, well, it's a free country.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthias777 wrote: | | I, for one, am going to try to do a better job of comparing knowledge drawn from secondary sources with the primary source, and do my best to admit that I was wrong about my prior conceptions when shown the error of my ways. |
Thank you, Matthias.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | You seem to be willfully misinterpretting and ignoring what I and others are saying so there is little point in my providing a point-by-point rebuttal of your reply. |
After having this exact same thing done to me for the last eight pages, I can definitely say that this is a two-way street
| Quote: | | The rules are the rules to a game inspired by three movies. If you don't like the rules for your game, then change them. Expecting everyone to want to play the exact same game as you seems surprising to me given the wealth of contrary points of view. Insisting that anyone who doesn't want to play your game must therefore be under the effects of mind altering cult influences is moronic. Likening us to a bunch of suicidal brainwashed cultists is insulting. If you can't be more polite and discuss the matter in good faith, you should consider getting even more sleep. |
This is a perfect example. I have never once said that everyone has to game the way I say they do. My point, from the very beginning, has been that the RAW, as written by WEG, has multiple flaws, some of which have fundamentally changed the way the Force is interpreted in the EU. Bren, you yourself pointed out in an earlier post that the WEG write-up for Telekinetic Kill had obvious dissimilarities to how TK Kill works in the films. Why, then, if you admit that WEG didn't get that right, is it so hard to say that WEG might have made other errors as well?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | The rules are the rules to a game inspired by three movies. If you don't like the rules for your game, then change them. Expecting everyone to want to play the exact same game as you seems surprising to me given the wealth of contrary points of view. Insisting that anyone who doesn't want to play your game must therefore be under the effects of mind altering cult influences is moronic. Likening us to a bunch of suicidal brainwashed cultists is insulting. If you can't be more polite and discuss the matter in good faith, you should consider getting even more sleep. |
This is a perfect example. I have never once said that everyone has to game the way I say they do. |
And yet, the following quote seems to be saying that anyone who is not playing the game your way is not playing Star Wars. I really don't know how else to interpret the quote other than as a strict expression of one-true-wayism derived from the correct or revealed interpretation of Star Wars scripture a view that presumes there is one correct interpretation and that discounts the requirements of a playable game and other people's varying points of view in arriving at that one interpretation.
| crmcneill wrote: | | You're right. It is just a game. But if the game is going to be called Star Wars, complete with the official logo, and the approval of Lucasfilm, then it should've stayed faithful to the material it was claiming as a source. The rules may not need to mirror the films to make sense, but they do need to mirror the films and make sense if they want to use the name Star Wars. |
Given the conflict in our underlying premises of the purpose of the WEG rules there is really little more to say. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | This is a perfect example. I have never once said that everyone has to game the way I say they do. |
And yet, the following quote seems to be saying that anyone who is not playing the game your way is not playing Star Wars. |
See, there you go again. You are taking my statement, misinterpreting it, and then responding as if your misinterpretation is what I meant. I have repeatedly stated that people have the right to play however they want. My argument is not about trying to tell people they have to game a certain way; it is about showing factual proof that WEG altered the original interpretation of the Force in subtle yet significant ways, for unknown reasons. Using secondary and tertiary arguments to try to justify why they did it is nothing but a distraction from the main point. Telling me that WEG had to do it to maintain game balance is an insult to my intelligence. WEG owed us an accurate reflection of the SWU in RPGS form. What we got from them was not Star Wars; it was their version of what they thought Star Wars should be, and as indicated by film evidence, they changed things for their own reasons. As a result of those changes, what they gave us was almost Star Wars, but not quite.
Now, certain members of this forum, for their own reasons, are choosing to ignore film evidence in favor of long standing WEG tradition. Fine. I'm not going to hunt you down and force you to do things my way. Just don't insult my intelligence by trying to tell me that WEG had to change the SWU on a fundamental level in the name of game balance. What they should have done was get the SWU accurately and then worried about balance.
If you are ok playing in WEG's interpretation of the SWU, then go right ahead; no one will try to stop you. But if you are so hidebound as to ardently insist that WEG's flawed interpretation of the films is more accurate than the films themselves, then I guess you really have been drinking the WEG Kool-Aid.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | See, there you go again. You are taking my statement, misinterpreting it, and then responding as if your misinterpretation is what I meant. |
The licensor (the Lucas group of companies) obviously didn't agree with your point of view that the WEG game was not Star Wars.
| Quote: | | My argument is not about trying to tell people they have to game a certain way; it is about showing factual proof that WEG altered the original interpretation of the Force in subtle yet significant ways, for unknown reasons. |
And for many of us there are reasons that are known or obvious. An RPG, unlike a movie, is not a spectator sport. The designers wanted to create a game where players could be play PCs like Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and both PCs would be viable and fun. Jedi being all powerful uber beings doesn't fit how Luke or Obi-Wan is portrayed in the first three films and certainly doesn't make for a very interesting RPG that includes non-Force users. Characters like Han, Chewie, Leia, and Lando have significant roles in the films and their skills and abilities are important and significant even when compared to Luke and OB1. The rules do an adequate job of reflecting that. Making the Jedi too uber by taking all the most powerful moments in the six films and ancillary material and ignoring any failures or conflicting material is unlikely to result in a game where playing Wedge or even Han is remotely entertaining.
| Quote: | | WEG owed us an accurate reflection of the SWU in RPGS form. |
Owed!? Really? Your sense of entitlement and feeling of outrage on this topic is truly mind boggling.
| Quote: | | If you are ok playing in WEG's interpretation of the SWU, then go right ahead; no one will try to stop you. But if you are so hidebound as to ardently insist that WEG's flawed interpretation of the films is more accurate than the films themselves, then I guess you really have been drinking the WEG Kool-Aid. |
Thanks so much for your permission.  Obviously WEG's interpretation is not a more accurate interpretation of the movies than...the movies themselves. Really you can't get much more tautological than that. I just happen to like WEG's interpretation and their D6 rules system in general. It's why I play this game, rather then playing say D20 Star Wars or some other game.
As I have said ad nauseum, if you don't like it change it or find a different game. Perhaps you would find SAGA or D20 more to your taste. |
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