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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16364 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:05 pm Post subject: Advanced Lightsaber Combat? |
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When taken as a whole, there’s a lot of conflicting information as to exactly how lightsaber combat (and force assisted combat in general) actually works. Some accounts suggest that it increases your strength and speed, as well as boosting your reflexes. The films and live action tv don’t really support that, though; it mostly just looks like really skilled swordsmanship and martial arts (albeit augmented by precognition through the Force).
My current theory involves getting rid of Lightsaber Combat as a distinct power and folding the pertinent abilities into an expanded version of Combat Sense. However, I prefer not to throw out aspects of the RAW and lore if I can at all help it, so I’ve been considering an advanced combat power - tentatively called Empowered Combat or Enhanced Combat - that adds the physical boosting of Strength and Dexterity to the precognitive enhancement of Combat Sense for a limited time (I’m thinking of including the # of rounds limitation from Combat Sense to keep it somewhat limited). Prerequisite would include my rewritten Combat Sense, Enhance Attribute and Concentration.
Not much beyond that at the moment, but I wanted to at least get the concept in writing. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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cunning_kindred Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Posts: 181 Location: Southampton, England
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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You could consider modelling the powers on the divide that the Ta-Ree spells in the Endgame books of the Darkstryder rules use. They have a Battle Mastery spell that adds its rating to attack rolls and an Energy Blade spell that lets them empower a melee weapon so that you can treat its damage die as the spell's dice code and parry blasters with it.
Perhaps you could have a Combat Mastery power that uses Control and Sense and allows you to add Control to attack rolls and Sense to parry and dodge rolls. And then have an Alter power that specifically lets you add Alter to the damage with a lightsaber by directly augmenting the blade. That way lightsaber are still better than other weapons for Jedi and Sith but other Force users can still get some enhancements with their combat.
I think back before we brought a FOR attribute into the game, my own group dabbled in a breakdown along these lines but I can't really remember how well it worked out for us. I think we kept Combat Sense as well, though. _________________ You can find the latest document here:
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pakman Commander


Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 448
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Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2025 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Great topic. I too had given this a lot of thought - and after tweaking and playtesting....
I got wordy....so added TLDR version...
TLDR Version:
I renamed lightsaber combat to be "Force Combat", no longer tied to lightsabers, and requires a Control 2D, and Sense 3D to use, and requires learning one of several Force Power discipline trees in my house rules.
I kept Combat sense - and made it more defense, and only requires Sense 2D.
The longer version....
Thinking About the Lightsaber Power
When I was working on my force power overhaul - I was considering similar thing - eventually I decided to keep a "force enhanced combat" power - for two reasons;
I knew it needed Sense - as that what allowed, as pointed out - the precogniative abilities, deflecting basters etc.
But I also wanted a "control" component - since "it controls your actions..." kind of thing.
100% logical? Not really - but worked for me.
I knew I wanted a power that was a mix of these two elements, and could help in combat....
where as Combat Sense I saw as more a defensive or generic ability - not always linked to lightsabers (or any weapon) AND it was only sense based ...to me.
My Force Power Advanced Skills
So, as part of the overhaul, instead of having a complex pre-requisite system that made the best flowchart go crazy if you mapped it out - I arranged the force abilities into groups, and within those groups, had multiple ranks.
The groups then turned into the Advanced Skills(A) - and the force abilities are arranged in tiers (I call them Ranks) with access based on the Advanced Skill Rank (1D, 2D etc.) and any specific requirements (like needing a Control of 3D etc.).
(yes, this is reminiscent of how the martial arts are presented, and a few other things in later d6 documents - basically like skill/talent trees etc.).
I have ...nine of them, which are thematically based (Energy Control(A), Enhance Body(A), Enhance Senses(A), Telekinesis(A)etc.). Each with a bunch of force techniques (previously known as powers....) under them.
Back to The Powers....er...Techniques
Because there is a whole lot more than just jedi - I renamed the Lightsaber Combat to a what I call "Force Combat". Mechanically - it does kind of the same thing - using it gives both as small offensive and defensive bonus in combat. Side note; as part of my rebalancing and power scaling - Sense adds to Defense, Control adds to offense - there is damage boost - but that is a different topic).
this "Force Combat" - kind of like your (CRM) Empowered combat etc.
(it also helps with reflecting blaster bolts if holding an object that can do that...but again, keeping it simple here).
My Force Combat (although, I like empowered combat....) is accessible on a few different of my Force Power Advanced Skill lists, its rank based on the theme of the Advanced Skill. It is concentration based, but is only counts as one action, as all my powers were reworded to only be one roll for simplification.
So, with Combat sense being only a "sense" thing - it is on the Advanced Skill Enhance Senses(A). It lasts six rounds, but can be extended by taking Fatigue (I tweaking the core Exhaustion rules - and many force powers tie to them) instead of character points in the main rules.
So to sum up....
I tweaked it a bit, renamed it Force Combat and it has the prerequisite of learning a specific force power (list or tree) if you will. The Advanced Skill has a requirement of Control 2D, and Sense 2D. _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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cunning_kindred Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Posts: 181 Location: Southampton, England
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Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2025 6:22 am Post subject: |
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pakman wrote: | I renamed lightsaber combat to be "Force Combat", no longer tied to lightsabers, and requires a Control 2D, and Sense 3D to use, and requires learning one of several Force Power discipline trees in my house rules. |
I have to admit that from what you have leaked here and there I am very curious to see your full system pakman. In many respects, from what you've said, it seems like your discipline trees are similar to the talents we use in our system but more codified.
In regards to your specific comment here, I would say that the basic Force Combat (whatever that might be) should have relatively mild prerequisites since it is one of the very first things Obi-Wan taught Luke. Of course, if you are using a Force attribute, Control 2D and Sense 3D would I suppose be quite mild and relatively easy to acquire at character creation even. If its more RAW in terms of cost, then that would line up with WEG's rules when it comes to how easy it is to get Lightsaber Combat going but also be one of the major reasons why we abandoned that as it just means that early Jedi characters just didn't feel like Jedi in any era other than the Dark Times. For contents, our equivalent talent has the following prerequisites "Attention 2D, Farseeing 2D, Melee Weapons 3D and Melee Parry 3D" which is all rather trivial to have as a starting character - some of us have even suggested it might be a little too easy as a FOR 2D and DEX 3D allow you to qualify immediately.
I also rather love this particular topic. Arguably, everything I have ever wrote for d6 star wars, all the rules changes, new powers, all it started with a desire to fix Lightsaber Combat, which I felt just did not get the style of Jedi combat right. Started off useless, passed through a reasonable faze way too quickly and then became an unstoppable behemoth that could smash through anything short of a Sith over the course of like 3D in the relative skills. It was almost comical watching some of my fellow players start with these relatively fragile wanna be Jedis and then transform overnight into unstoppable killing machines jsut cause they had gone from 3D in control to 5D.
Out of curiosity, do Force Points still double all dice pools in your version of the rules, Pakman. Force Points and how they interact with the Force skills in particular always played a big roll in how out of hand Lightsaber Combat could get in combat, I felt. _________________ You can find the latest document here:
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16364 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2025 10:36 am Post subject: |
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@pakman
Recommended Reading: Revenge of the Sith novel adaptation. Matthew Stover does a stellar job depicting the mutual give-and-take of using just Sense in combat.
I haven't really nailed down my concept for Combat Sense because it's hugely dependent on some other concepts that I haven't fleshed out, but it's tied in with my rework of Dodge and combining the two Parry skills into Defense. The tl;dr of the difference between the two is whether or not the user's senses and reflexes are sufficient to allow them to react to an attack. Brawling, Melee and Thrown Weapons would be countered by Defense, while bullets, blaster bolts and the like are moving too fast to be sensed and reacted to, so they are countered with Dodge. One facet of my reworked Combat Sense would be to allow a Force user to use Defense against "fast" attacks, since the Force augments their reflexes and allows them to react to them. Combat Sense would also generate a bonus that (at either a +1 per 2 or +1 per 3 rate of Success) would be stacked with their pertinent combat skills.
For the Force Augmented Combat, I'm thinking of using the above (at higher Difficulty), but adding Control as a Dice Pool that can be added to the combat skills and/or the damage roll. I'm also thinking of giving it the three-round limit from the RAW version of Combat Sense in an effort to keep it from being abused. I see it more as a "supercharged combat" that's used in short bursts for hero moments. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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pakman Commander


Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 448
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Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2025 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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cunning_kindred wrote: | pakman wrote: | I renamed lightsaber combat to be "Force Combat", no longer tied to lightsabers, and requires a Control 2D, and Sense 3D to use, and requires learning one of several Force Power discipline trees in my house rules. |
I have to admit that from what you have leaked here and there I am very curious to see your full system pakman. In many respects, from what you've said, it seems like your discipline trees are similar to the talents we use in our system but more codified.
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Thanks - I am about to start the process of getting more folks to review/give comment etc. Also - yes - my advanced skills are essentially "talent trees" - by any other name. The lightsaber forms and other force user techniques have been done for a while (and tweaked for about six months or so) - and I am currently working on the non-force user skills.
Honestly I would say that I feel the non-force Advanced Skills are even more critical - as "normal" characters deserve more options as they don't have the force powers to give them unique or interesting things to do. I will start another post on some of the groups and segmentation.
cunning_kindred wrote: |
In regards to your specific comment here, I would say that the basic Force Combat (whatever that might be) should have relatively mild prerequisites since it is one of the very first things Obi-Wan taught Luke.
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While a solid point - we have to balance that out with "hero" cinematic license compared to lucas other works on the jedi training (prequels and clone wars content etc.).
Now having said that - the requirements are A force Skill at 2D and Melee Combat: Lightsaber at 4D trained. So pretty easy.
(As part of my skill consolidation - I made Lightsaber a specialization in Melee Combat Still). The training/story factor of needing someone to teach it - is the bigger hurdle honestly (depending on campaign era...).
cunning_kindred wrote: |
I also rather love this particular topic. Arguably, everything I have ever wrote for d6 star wars, all the rules changes, new powers, all it started with a desire to fix Lightsaber Combat, which I felt just did not get the style of Jedi combat right.....
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I can relate - when we started up D6 again, we had some house rules from "back in the day" but the mess that is the force powers really inspired a lot more changes ...it it kind of got out of control from there
As you mention, power scaling was also major consideration - as part of my overhaul - beginning force users can do more things (but weakly) where as higher power are capable - but toned down dramatically.
cunning_kindred wrote: |
Out of curiosity, do Force Points still double all dice pools in your version of the rules, Pakman. Force Points and how they interact with the Force skills in particular always played a big roll in how out of hand Lightsaber Combat could get in combat, I felt. |
No, we use a different mechanic for Force Points and Character points.
Character Points to "Hero Dice"
None of us liked the character point spending mechanic from our playing back in the day, and as influenced from other systems - we separated out character points.
Players instead get "Experience Points" - for raising skills etc at the end of an adventure for an "Advancement" . The total number is retained and tracked for measuring character capability, and balancing encounters (NPC X is a 80 XP character in 4 advances etc.). This has worked out well in being able to balance encounters and adventures etc.
Each game session the party gets a pool of "Hero Dice" they can spend just like character points - more are sometimes given for good role playing or fun ideas - unused dice expire at the end of the session.
Force Skills that were tied to spending Character points - (very few) are instead tied to Exhaustion (I have a very simple stress/exhaustion system compatible with the limited exhaustion in 2.5).
Force Points - to Cinematic Moments
A mechanic from our other games my group has done - once per adventure - a character in a high risk/reward situation can ask for a "Cinematic" moment - their action is automatically successful. These are usually done in critical plot points in adventures (like shooting into a exhaust port, resisting the emperor and the dark side, etc.). I have however, put into my "Optional Rules" to use the traditional Force Point mechanic for groups not interested in this mechanic.
We have been playing with both of these mechanics for three years - and other than a few minor tweaks - this has worked out well.
Thank you for your comments!!!
CRMcNeill wrote: |
Recommended Reading: Revenge of the Sith novel adaptation. Matthew Stover does a stellar job depicting the mutual give-and-take of using just Sense in combat. |
Thanks for the share - I have not read it - but have heard a few things about extra content or perspectives - will have to check it out.
Also - totally understand about the interconnected relationship between any one rule and others they impact.
I can say - my simplified approach for Control and Sense were done for both keeping things less complex and balance without getting complicated.
One note: I have very intentionally limited the ways to add to damage - as the insanely high jedi damage bonuses in RAW was one of the factors I wanted to balance out. I would suggest being careful with giving force users ways to pump damage.
I do have ways to add to damage - but most of them are in pips where RAW added DICE, and non-force users have access to a few as well
(for example our Soldiers & Mercenary(A) Advanced Skill trees has a Rank II Technique called "Short Controlled Bursts" - adds +1D Damage when using "Burst Mode" on an eligible blaster weapon - these have limited shots, use more ammo and are expensive etc.).
(again - balancing out power curves, and jedi-vs-non-jedi characters).
Great conversation. _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16364 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2025 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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pakman wrote: | I do have ways to add to damage - but most of them are in pips where RAW added DICE, and non-force users have access to a few as well |
Agreed, which is part of my plan for Combat Sense. Since the Sense bonus only tacks onto the Lightsaber skill roll (with no Control component to add to damage), the only way a Jedi gets a bonus to damage is through accuracy, via precision strikes. I use a blanket Accuracy Damage Bonus system whereby the Damage result gets a +1 bonus for every three points by which the Attack roll succeeds.
I also allow Lightsabers to inflict Sustained Damage, which increases round-over-round, allowing it to burn through a target with constant application over time (see the blast door aboard the TF ship in TPM). Basically, every round of uninterrupted contact generates a Coordination Bonus to Damage, on top of any Accuracy Damage Bonus. Of course, the Jedi also starts taking Damage from heat bloom, equivalent to the generated Coordination Bonus.
I'm also considering changing the Lightsaber's Damage from "5D" to "1/2 Dexterity + 4D", as a variation on D6 Space's Strength Damage rule.
As I'm currently picturing it, the Enhanced Combat power would only last for three rounds (ala the official stats for Combat Sense), and would use the above rules for Combat Sense, but Control Dice would be added in as a Dice Pool split between Lightsaber and Damage _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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