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Zarn Force Spirit
Joined: 17 Jun 2014 Posts: 698
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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | But how can they have that jump calculated ahead of time, when they should need to have their entrance point into hyperspace plotted as part of it? |
Zarn wrote: | We generally played it as being a valid jump out of the system from a particular heading, and that it was valid only for a short time (a day or two at most), with double the amount of wild dice for mishaps. As an exit strategy, it was meant as a Hail Mary pass at any rate. |
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jmanski Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: Kansas
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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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The pre-calculated jump should reduce the calculations but not eliminate them entirely just for that reason, Garhk. _________________ Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2279 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, one of our group is a huge SW fan (more knowledgeable than just about anybody I know), and we've done things based on what's been established in the books.
I think, as others have suggested, it would only work for a short time (and still might require minute adjustments). _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10408 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Zarn wrote: | Oh, and by the way - data tapes are still in use, and still have their place. So they might still be in use in the SW universe, though it is slightly less credible given that they seem to have holographic storage through the use of data crystals. |
Regarding the use of the term "tapes", I don't get hung up on the terminology. That could be a generic in-universe term in data storage and not really refer to what we think of as analog tapes. It could still be a form of digital file storage like we would expect for a civilization that has had FTL for well over 25,000 years.
Whill wrote: | Or are you saying that a navicomputer can or should be able to store 10-20 pre-calculated jumps on top of the ability to calculate any jump, the advantage of using one of those 10-20 stored jumps would be that it only took the shorter one minute time to implement and go to lightspeed? |
garhkal wrote: | But how can they have that jump calculated ahead of time, when they should need to have their entrance point into hyperspace plotted as part of it? |
jmanski wrote: | The pre-calculated jump should reduce the calculations but not eliminate them entirely just for that reason, Garhk. |
Agreed, and per R&E p. 118 that is RAW. "Calculating a route takes one minute if the character is using a well-travelled route or is using pre-calculated coordinates." In the next paragraph, it says, "Many freighter captains calculate coordinates while still at the spaceport so they can make a jump quickly if they're attacked by pirates."
When using pre-calculated jumps, it is also reasonable to limit the area of space that they are effective for, so specific jump points could be part of the program, meaning you still have to get your ship to the correct part of the star system and approach it with the correct vector before being able to use stored jump to go to lightspeed. _________________ *
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jmanski Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: Kansas
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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True, or perhaps a round or two to calculate versus the minute for full calculations. _________________ Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10408 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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jmanski wrote: | True, or perhaps a round or two to calculate versus the minute for full calculations. |
Even though RAW says "Calculating a route takes one minute if the character... is using pre-calculated coordinates" I think a GM lowering the calculation time to a round or two as appropriate to the situation may be reasonable. _________________ *
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, especially for a shorter jump.
The hyperdrive rules in the RAW came out when there was very little info on how the galaxy was laid out. I could see basing the time to calculate a route on the number of regions travelled and/or the difficulty of the jump. |
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Zarn Force Spirit
Joined: 17 Jun 2014 Posts: 698
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Whill, I don't consider 'data tapes' analog tapes. For me, they're the tapes of tape-based backup systems. A current LTFS-capable system, the IBM TS1150, has a capacity of 360MB / sec, and a total capacity of 10 TB.
Last year, Sony and IBM announced that they had been able to record 148 gigabits per square inch with magnetic tape media developed using a new vacuum thin-film forming technology able to form extremely fine crystal particles, allowing true tape capacity of 185 TB.
So, we're not talking the old 8-track players, the minicassette answering machines, the venerable MC-90s or what have you, or the Betamax or VHS cassettes of yore (though the data tapes in question might have a size roughly equivalent with those systems) - we're talking about something that has real performance, and a real advantage on data density. Seek time's still atrocious, though. |
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griff Captain
Joined: 16 Jan 2014 Posts: 507 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:30 am Post subject: |
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After a while I just thought of the term 'data tape' is just what they call any portable information storage device with indifference of how ancient the origin of 'data tape' is. Real world example the save button on Windows' tool bar (go ahead and look, I'll wait) is a 3.5 inch floppy disk. NO COLLEGE STUDENT TODAY HAS EVER USED ONE. And may not know what it is, but there it is. _________________ "EXECUTE ORDER 67. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound like order 67..... No, wait. Yes, yes it does. EXECUTE ORDER 68" Palpatine's last moments - robot chicken. |
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Zarn Force Spirit
Joined: 17 Jun 2014 Posts: 698
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:41 am Post subject: |
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There's actually a term for obsolete images used to convey some symbolic meaning. If I were to snark, I might say 'religion', but as an interface metaphor it is known as a skeuomorph. |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:40 am Post subject: |
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griff wrote: | After a while I just thought of the term 'data tape' is just what they call any portable information storage device with indifference of how ancient the origin of 'data tape' is. Real world example the save button on Windows' tool bar (go ahead and look, I'll wait) is a 3.5 inch floppy disk. NO COLLEGE STUDENT TODAY HAS EVER USED ONE. And may not know what it is, but there it is. |
It makes sense. On old game consoles such as the Atari and Nintendo, some people would refer to the game cartridges as "tapes" despite the fact that they contained pre-burned ROMs -and no tape of any kind.
A few years earlier, however, magnetic tape was the predominant medium used for storing and loading programs. Some people still do it, with newer consoles and even with game DVDs. So there is a real world precedented. |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2279 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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And people today still talk about "taping that show", when I doubt many are actually using their VCR. _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Thread Necro In Effect.
Whill recently jogged my memory about another discussion of data storage, and it's been somewhat on my mind ever since.
I'm wondering what the Data Storage rules would look like if updated to 2E or 2R&E, as well as some of my more common house rules. Some thoughts:-The rules for individual files should be updated to reflect the 2E rules for Specializations, in that a file will essentially be a AI program with a very narrow skill focus, on a very specific topic.
-The CRFG Rule had it that extracting information from a Datafile only required a Very Easy Computer Programming roll. I think that should be discarded in favor of standard Difficulties based on how obscure the question being asked is.
-Another aspect of the CFRG rule was that computers would provide a bonus to Computer Programming when making the roll to extract information. Instead, I'm thinking of a two-stage system, where the combined Computer Programming + Processor Bonus creates a +3=+1 bonus that is added to the Datafile's skill roll when rolling to get an answer. While CFRG says that characters can't spend FPs on the roll, it isn't entirely clear as to which roll they meant. My thinking is to allow them to spend FP/CPs on their own Computer Programming roll, but not the Datafile roll (on the basis that the character can still use the Force when programming, but the datafile is just a datafile).
-I'm thinking of applying the x2=+1D rule to Datafile Storage size, so that a computer with 10D of Storage can hold one 10D file, two 9D files, four 8D files, eight 7D files, and so on and so forth. Obviously, some of the CRFG computer stats will need to be adjusted downward to compensate, but a computer that adds 5D to a character's Computer Programming rolls when making intrusions was always OP anyway.
-As Whill mentioned in the other topic, it would be appropriate for smaller computers to actually have dice penalties, in that they are no-frills versions whose main advantage is that they can be smuggled into situations where covert access is essential.
-Also, w/r/t Artoo carrying the Death Star plans, I'm thinking files should be Compressible ("Zipped") for storage, reducing their size by 3D or 4D. When in Compressed form, it wouldn't be readable/accessible, but would be able to be transported in a much smaller device. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 2:08 am Post subject: |
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On a related note, it’s worth considering the ramifications of a Navcomputer’s star charts being written in the HDT format, so that it’s not just a simple string of numbers, but a droid-personality-in-miniature programmed with the knowledge of specific hyperspace routes, and is able to extrapolate information about the route that it isn’t actually programmed with… _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10408 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:38 am Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Thread Necro In Effect. |
Nice. When I went back to the beginning of this thread, I had no memory of it and thought that I hadn't posted in it. Then I found that I posted in it a couple times and I still have no real memory of the discussion back then, but I have actually thought about those things recently and my thoughts haven't changed since. So there's some continuity of thought at least.
Quote: | Whill recently jogged my memory about another discussion of data storage, and it's been somewhat on my mind ever since...
-As Whill mentioned in the other topic, it would be appropriate for smaller computers to actually have dice penalties, in that they are no-frills versions whose main advantage is that they can be smuggled into situations where covert access is essential. |
I've been wanting to extract my idea on that from that thread and put it somewhere else, so I will here for now. These are the proposed computer programming modifiers.
Modern pocket computers: -1D
Modern datapads: -2
Modern standard portable computers: -1
Modern standard non-portable computers: +0 Modern here refers to the classic era. Older tech could have worse penalties. (Of course computer tech has probably reached some kind of singularity in Star Wars, so true advances are probably much slower than they currently are on Earth.) Higher end portable computers may be +0 or a little more, and non-portable computers go up from there. In the other thread there was some debate about the max bonus from higher end and larger computers, and I will not regurgitate that here.
Quote: | I'm wondering what the Data Storage rules would look like if updated to 2E or 2R&E, as well as some of my more common house rules. Some thoughts... The rules for individual files should be updated to reflect the 2E rules for Specializations, in that a file will essentially be a AI program with a very narrow skill focus, on a very specific topic. |
Absolutely. Most data files would specialization skills rather than base skills, or at most a specialization + a (probably much) lower base skill.
Quote: | -The CRFG Rule had it that extracting information from a Datafile only required a Very Easy Computer Programming roll. I think that should be discarded in favor of standard Difficulties based on how obscure the question being asked is. |
Logical.
Quote: | -Another aspect of the CFRG rule was that computers would provide a bonus to Computer Programming when making the roll to extract information. Instead, I'm thinking of a two-stage system, where the combined Computer Programming + Processor Bonus creates a +3=+1 bonus that is added to the Datafile's skill roll when rolling to get an answer. |
Interesting.
Quote: | While CFRG says that characters can't spend FPs on the roll, it isn't entirely clear as to which roll they meant. My thinking is to allow them to spend FP/CPs on their own Computer Programming roll, but not the Datafile roll (on the basis that the character can still use the Force when programming, but the datafile is just a datafile). |
I agree.
Quote: | -I'm thinking of applying the x2=+1D rule to Datafile Storage size, so that a computer with 10D of Storage can hold one 10D file, two 9D files, four 8D files, eight 7D files, and so on and so forth. |
Interesting.
Quote: | Obviously, some of the CRFG computer stats will need to be adjusted downward to compensate, but a computer that adds 5D to a character's Computer Programming rolls when making intrusions was always OP anyway. |
Agreed.
Quote: | -Also, w/r/t Artoo carrying the Death Star plans, I'm thinking files should be Compressible ("Zipped") for storage, reducing their size by 3D or 4D. When in Compressed form, it wouldn't be readable/accessible, but would be able to be transported in a much smaller device. |
I agree. There was definitely data compression going on with the Death Star plans. I would say Artoo may not even have the the storage capacity to store them unzipped or the processing power to unzip them himself.
CRMcNeill wrote: | On a related note, it’s worth considering the ramifications of a Navcomputer’s star charts being written in the HDT format, so that it’s not just a simple string of numbers, but a droid-personality-in-miniature programmed with the knowledge of specific hyperspace routes, and is able to extrapolate information about the route that it isn’t actually programmed with… |
AI is a good explanation for higher end navicomputers that provide a bonus to the astrogator's roll. _________________ *
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