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Droids Book
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 4:09 pm    Post subject: Droids Book Reply with quote

I've got a new player to my game, and he decided to play a droid. He chose to be an old, refurbished battle droid (the property of another PC in the game, played by my son).

For the first session, we just sort of winged things with a battle droid we found online, but then a few days ago I worked with the player to tighten down the specifics and details of the character (before our next game tomorrow).

I was honestly pretty surprised at the guidelines given in the Droids book produced by WEG. In it, you can either purchase everything (including 'attachments', which are what they call all the weapons, gadgets, and extra features like hidden compartments), or they give some alternative methods. One of those alternatives is to allocate 25D between all attributes, skills, and attachments. But the crazy thing is that - unlike species - there are hardly any minimums or maximums.

Anybody who has been around this game for a minute understands that the most bang for your buck is to put your points into Attributes (as then all Skills under that Attribute also benefit). According to this book, the dice spent on Attributes can be as low as 0D and as high as 13D!!! Shocked I personally think that's a bit ridiculous, and this player was already leaning towards being a combat monster (he can tend to be more of a "munchkin"). Me and my son discussed this, and my son pointed out that one could have a 13D DEX, take 6 actions a turn, and still be an 8D (for Skills like Blaster and Dodge).

The player was initially asking for a 7D DEX. I decided to cap him at 5D for Attributes, and charged 1D for each Attachment (the book isn't clear on what Attachments cost, if you're not using the spend credits method). From the example given, it seems like 1D for each Attachment seemed appropriate , though even from the example given it didn't correspond perfectly.

Overall the Droids book is fun, but a few issues like the above make me think it was edited a bit sloppily. It gives lot of example droids and is a good starting point, but requires some modification by GMs, IMHO.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While that's technically true, looking through all the books with droids, ARE There any that HAVE higher than a 5d in any attribute, that is in the RAW?

I see an interrogation droid with 4d per, a few worker droids with 4d know.
A pair of astromechs with 4d tech. The highest i see, is a few sith battle droids with 5d str.....
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Droids Book Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
While that's technically true, looking through all the books with droids, ARE There any that HAVE higher than a 5d in any attribute, that is in the RAW?

I see an interrogation droid with 4d per, a few worker droids with 4d know.
A pair of astromechs with 4d tech. The highest i see, is a few sith battle droids with 5d str.....

Are any stock droid stats anywhere close to being equal to player character stats? No. The whole basic premise of playing a droid character is that you are going to play an experienced droid with better than stock stats. Therefore, there is no way around having a droid PC be better than the stock droid they are based on.

Of course how exactly you go about making a droid equal to a PC is the problem...

DougRed4 wrote:
I've got a new player to my game, and he decided to play a droid. He chose to be an old, refurbished battle droid (the property of another PC in the game, played by my son).

For the first session, we just sort of winged things with a battle droid we found online, but then a few days ago I worked with the player to tighten down the specifics and details of the character (before our next game tomorrow).

I was honestly pretty surprised at the guidelines given in the Droids book produced by WEG. In it, you can either purchase everything (including 'attachments', which are what they call all the weapons, gadgets, and extra features like hidden compartments), or they give some alternative methods. One of those alternatives is to allocate 25D between all attributes, skills, and attachments. But the crazy thing is that - unlike species - there are hardly any minimums or maximums.

Anybody who has been around this game for a minute understands that the most bang for your buck is to put your points into Attributes (as then all Skills under that Attribute also benefit). According to this book, the dice spent on Attributes can be as low as 0D and as high as 13D!!! Shocked I personally think that's a bit ridiculous, and this player was already leaning towards being a combat monster (he can tend to be more of a "munchkin"). Me and my son discussed this, and my son pointed out that one could have a 13D DEX, take 6 actions a turn, and still be an 8D (for Skills like Blaster and Dodge).

The player was initially asking for a 7D DEX. I decided to cap him at 5D for Attributes, and charged 1D for each Attachment (the book isn't clear on what Attachments cost, if you're not using the spend credits method). From the example given, it seems like 1D for each Attachment seemed appropriate , though even from the example given it didn't correspond perfectly.

Overall the Droids book is fun, but a few issues like the above make me think it was edited a bit sloppily. It gives lot of example droids and is a good starting point, but requires some modification by GMs, IMHO.

Yes, a 13D attribute ridiculous (or even a 13D skill for a starting PC), but there is even a bigger crime there. I have argued this many times: you cannot equate attributes to skills. Die for die is absurd, but even D6 Space's 4D in skills for 1D in attributes does not work. A munchkin will still abuse that by putting it all into attributes and getting more bang for their buck.

Even the Star Wars 'species attribute dice +6D' rule is broken because it takes the realism of species inequality and enforces it on PCs, who are supposed to be game balanced to each other for a reason. The only thing that has ever made sense to me is that all PCs of any species are always exactly 18D in attributes. Species and NPCs are still unequal as they should be, but PCs are balanced as they should be.
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Ziz
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Joined: 26 Feb 2022
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Droids Book Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
The player was initially asking for a 7D DEX. I decided to cap him at 5D for Attributes, and charged 1D for each Attachment (the book isn't clear on what Attachments cost, if you're not using the spend credits method). From the example given, it seems like 1D for each Attachment seemed appropriate , though even from the example given it didn't correspond perfectly.


Adjust/multiply it depending what the attachment does, how much damage it causes, how much power it uses, how easy is it to repair/replace if damaged/broken, etc. That will make the player think a little more about which attachments to get and why rather than turning their character into what R2 became in the films - a giant Swiss Army Knife. Maybe also come up with a limit on how many attachments they can have, so they'll reach a point where if they want a new attachment, they have to sacrifice an old one.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YMMV for sure when making droids. RAW are trash for making PC droids and I believe that WEG's intent was to shy away from players playing them, but for whatever reason, tossed in some haphazard rules.

In my games I tell players if they want to play a droid that 1. droids are property and have no rights, 2. droids do not learn or improve skills without programming upgrades or a rare heuristic processor, and 3. droids are tools designed to perform a small range of related functions.

When creating a droid character they start off with 25D and attributes are 1D/4D. Attributes must be related to the droids purpose. Having a protocol droid with with Dexterity and Strength 4D though possible does not make sense. Some of theses ideas can be emulated by skill choices.

Equipment that gives a modifier or negates a situational modifier costs between +1 and +1D depending on the adjudication of the GM. In the case of the protocol droid with high Strength, perhaps it is a version that has a heavy duty chassis giving a +1D to brawling damage and lifting skill checks. Perhaps it is armored, giving a +1D vs damage.

Its a lot of on-the-fly and common sense stuff. There are no hard rules that I feel fit for making PC droids.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: Droids Book Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Are any stock droid stats anywhere close to being equal to player character stats? No. The whole basic premise of playing a droid character is that you are going to play an experienced droid with better than stock stats. Therefore, there is no way around having a droid PC be better than the stock droid they are based on.


But even if we do say tak up all the starting die a book droid has, the subtract that from the 25d a starting droid pc gets, you still shouldn't be getting anywhere close to 8-9d in starting attributes..

Whill wrote:
Yes, a 13D attribute ridiculous (or even a 13D skill for a starting PC), but there is even a bigger crime there. I have argued this many times: you cannot equate attributes to skills. Die for die is absurd, but even D6 Space's 4D in skills for 1D in attributes does not work. A munchkin will still abuse that by putting it all into attributes and getting more bang for their buck.


Especially when you can see how many skills are under each attribute...
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pakman
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of various and valid perspectives in this thread.

Wants to start at 7d? Um. no.

Here was my take on a droid pc;

Stats
He gets 18d just like everyone else. He buys skills, just like everyone else.
The starting stats for a droid - I adjust to make it like any other character template. Justify as necessary - but in the end, it is 18D like everyone else.

someone might say "but this droid" - that is an npc droid.
you are a pc. you follow pc rules. thank you for playing.

Does he have a stat higher than the "standard" for that model. Ok, thats fine. Can easily come up with a fluffy justification. What matters is the 18d stats etc.


Differences
Has a racial trait of not needing food, air etc.
Has a racial trait of a social stigma where many will not respect them etc.
In combat, can't be healed - needs repair rolls - and spare parts packs(costs exact amount as a med kit). Keep it simple.

Improving characters;
When spending CP - the training time is considered to be getting new programs etc. If a player says "I want to just write a new program" I say "sure, it takes the amount of time that training takes " etc.

Equipment:
They get the physical appearance, and any locomotion benefits.
Any starting special gear comes from their starting money.
(scomp link, tools etc.). If they can't afford it - it is broken.

I treat their gear it just as equipment as any other player would have (med kit, tool kit, blaster etc.). Except they can't drop it. But when they take damage, it can get damaged.

In summary
If someone wants to play a droid because it is different, or cool or a fun idea - I will do everything I can to facilitate it. If someone wants to min max - they can go play a single player video game for that.

For me the key to this game is not getting super detailed - it is keeping things as consistent as possible - and then, only where it would break immersion or balance, then do something different - to do something different.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Stats
He gets 18d just like everyone else. He buys skills, just like everyone else.
The starting stats for a droid - I adjust to make it like any other character template. Justify as necessary - but in the end, it is 18D like everyone else.

someone might say "but this droid" - that is an npc droid.
you are a pc. you follow pc rules. thank you for playing.

Does he have a stat higher than the "standard" for that model. Ok, thats fine. Can easily come up with a fluffy justification. What matters is the 18d stats etc.


Would you create 'droid class attribute min/maxes' akin to racial min/maxes?

pakman wrote:
Differences
Has a racial trait of not needing food, air etc.
Has a racial trait of a social stigma where many will not respect them etc. In combat, can't be healed - needs repair rolls - and spare parts packs(costs exact amount as a med kit). Keep it simple.


You forgot can get ionized, but not stunned..

pakman wrote:
When spending CP - the training time is considered to be getting new programs etc. If a player says "I want to just write a new program" I say "sure, it takes the amount of time that training takes " etc.

If he had droid engineering/software engineering, i could see letting him MAKE up a new program.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
pakman wrote:
Stats
He gets 18d just like everyone else. He buys skills, just like everyone else.
The starting stats for a droid - I adjust to make it like any other character template. Justify as necessary - but in the end, it is 18D like everyone else.

someone might say "but this droid" - that is an npc droid.
you are a pc. you follow pc rules. thank you for playing.

Does he have a stat higher than the "standard" for that model. Ok, thats fine. Can easily come up with a fluffy justification. What matters is the 18d stats etc.


Would you create 'droid class attribute min/maxes' akin to racial min/maxes?

If he had droid engineering/software engineering, i could see letting him MAKE up a new program.


On the max attributes - Probably.
As along as it all fell within 18d.
I know it might not always be 100% realistic - and it might preclude some droid types - but I have found that realism should take a backset to gameplay. I really try to work with my players to do cool stuff - as long as I feel they are not trying to min max or something like that.

Now, if they really wanted to go above a max (say 3D+2 Strength on a pit droid, where I made the max 2D+2) there would need to be some story factors - maybe and adventure to get special plating, or more durable servos - but as long as the overall was balanced (i.e. 18D total stats) - I would be flexible.

Engineering -
Sure - that time spent making the new program - it is the spending of the character points. if they made a good roll - I might reduce the time.

I let my players come up with all kinds of stuff - as long as it is mostly fluffy or not game breaking.

Sometimes I way overcomplicate things (a lot...) then realize, simple is better if it means we can still have fun at the table and get close to the same goals.
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