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Force Powers as reactions.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:47 pm    Post subject: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

Watching the movies it dawns on me that it appears that many of the defensive
powers shown are reactions more so than prepared in any way.

If we look to the scene on bespin where vader blocks the blaster bolt, this appears to be a mere reaction.

How do we make powers "instant" as in a reaction, not a "prepared action"

I can thin allowing instant use of the force and force powers but at a penalty to dice, but I do not know.

How many fractions of a second does a blaster bolt use traveing across a room, not too many, and to be honest anything that needs to see the bolt fired, then concentrate on the force and then react to block it seems to me a little bit too late. This is why I am thinking instant use as a reaction, it maybe not as powerful as a thought through and planned and prepared action, but still it makes sense to me to have some form of instant reaxtion as to at least defensive force powers
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
If we look to the scene on bespin where vader blocks the blaster bolt, this appears to be a mere reaction.

I'm not saying that can't or shouldn't be a reaction, but in this case Vader knew it was very likely Han would shoot at him. WEG had this example to go on and interpreted it as he had time to prepare for it. RAW says it has to be the same round but before the shot happens, so in a lot of cases that means you have to win initiative. Vader surprised him so had initiative. WEG's rule works for how it happened in that film. The RO hallway scene is a better example for it being reactive than Bespin.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
If we look to the scene on bespin where vader blocks the blaster bolt, this appears to be a mere reaction.

I'm not saying that can't or shouldn't be a reaction, but in this case Vader knew it was very likely Han would shoot at him. WEG had this example to go on and interpreted it as he had time to prepare for it. RAW says it has to be the same round but before the shot happens, so in a lot of cases that means you have to win initiative. Vader surprised him so had initiative. WEG's rule works for how it happened in that film.

Danger Sense covers that quite nicely, as per the letter of the power, Vader would've known Han was going to shoot in the round before it happened, and thus he would've had ample time to active Absorb/Dissipate.

As a counter-example, in HttE, Luke is successfully ambushed from behind by one of Karrde's crewmen who was wearing a Ysalamiri backpack, and was thus unable to activate the Resist Stun power. Because the shooter was undetectable in the Force, Danger Sense didn't work, and therefore Luke was "surprised".

Quote:
The RO hallway scene is a better example for it being reactive than Bespin.

Also a little harder to justify from a RAW standpoint, as Lightsaber Combat doesn't have any rules for increasing Initiative. However, if someone were to fold Lightsaber Combat into a larger Force Combat power (as is being discussed elsewhere), it would make sense to fold the initiative aspect of Combat Sense into it, specifically:
    he gets to decide when he wants to act during a round—no initiative rolls are needed while the power is in effect. If more than one Jedi is using this power, whichever Jedi rolled highest when invoking the power gets to determine exactly when they are acting in the round.
Effectively, the Jedi would automatically win Initiative and thus have the option of knowing their opponent was about to shoot them, and thus preemptively activate Absorb/Dissipate, or make whatever reaction is appropriate for the circumstances.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
If we look to the scene on bespin where vader blocks the blaster bolt, this appears to be a mere reaction.

I'm not saying that can't or shouldn't be a reaction, but in this case Vader knew it was very likely Han would shoot at him. WEG had this example to go on and interpreted it as he had time to prepare for it. RAW says it has to be the same round but before the shot happens, so in a lot of cases that means you have to win initiative. Vader surprised him so had initiative. WEG's rule works for how it happened in that film. The RO hallway scene is a better example for it being reactive than Bespin.


Either that, or vader had Danger sense up, which BY the rules, gave him a round of warning, so was able to bring UP his ab/dis at the ready..
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:15 am    Post subject: Re: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

Yep.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
The RO hallway scene is a better example for it being reactive than Bespin.

Also a little harder to justify from a RAW standpoint, as Lightsaber Combat doesn't have any rules for increasing Initiative.

No, Lightsaber Combat doesn't have any rules for increasing general Initiative but no one expects it to because Lightsaber Combat in RAW doesn't give the Force user any abilities that aren't specifically involving the lightsaber. That power has nothing to do with Vader absorbing and redirecting a blaster bolt with his hand, a different power.

The topic at hand was about Absorb Energy being used as a reaction, and the RO hallway scene is a better candidate than Bespin for Vader just reacting to someone about to shoot him in a hallway full of people shooting at him. It just seems that it was just done in the heat of the moment more than Bespin which seems more likely premeditated. but my main point that Cloud City was likely prepared, but yes RO could have been too.

CRMcNeill wrote:
it would make sense to fold the initiative aspect of Combat Sense into it, specifically:
    he gets to decide when he wants to act during a round—no initiative rolls are needed while the power is in effect. If more than one Jedi is using this power, whichever Jedi rolled highest when invoking the power gets to determine exactly when they are acting in the round.
Effectively, the Jedi would automatically win Initiative

Personally, I'm not fond of Jedi automatically winning initiative against non-Jedi, so I'd prefer the general ability to take the form of a bonus to initiative.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In TFA the assault at the village is anpther example of what I would see more as a reaction than anything prepared.

Poe shooting at Kylo, and Kylo stopping the bolt in the air.

Now I can see Kylo here simply react, block/halt the bolt then sense where it came from and order his troopers to detain Poe.

I am not sure if the rules will cover this, but to me it made no sense that Kylo would "allow" this to happen if he in any way knew of the attack
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
No, Lightsaber Combat doesn't have any rules for increasing general Initiative but no one expects it to because Lightsaber Combat in RAW doesn't give the Force user any abilities that aren't specifically involving the lightsaber. That power has nothing to do with Vader absorbing and redirecting a blaster bolt with his hand, a different power.


He could have had Combat sense up, since THAT allows him to decide when he wants to go.. So he could 'auto win initiative' that way.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
No, Lightsaber Combat doesn't have any rules for increasing general Initiative but no one expects it to because Lightsaber Combat in RAW doesn't give the Force user any abilities that aren't specifically involving the lightsaber. That power has nothing to do with Vader absorbing and redirecting a blaster bolt with his hand, a different power.

He could have had Combat sense up, since THAT allows him to decide when he wants to go.. So he could 'auto win initiative' that way.

Exactly. No one would expect Lightsaber Combat to help a Jedi with an Absorb/Redirect of a blaster bolt but there are other powers. And GMs supporting the existence of a power that only helps Jedi with lightsabers doesn't mean they feel there shouldn't be any powers that help without lightsabers. It's not all or nothing.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Force Powers as reactions. Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
No, Lightsaber Combat doesn't have any rules for increasing general Initiative but no one expects it to because Lightsaber Combat in RAW doesn't give the Force user any abilities that aren't specifically involving the lightsaber. That power has nothing to do with Vader absorbing and redirecting a blaster bolt with his hand, a different power.


He could have had Combat sense up, since THAT allows him to decide when he wants to go.. So he could 'auto win initiative' that way.


Granted, but there is still time used to actually use the power, and with more powers up we encounter map, and as such I still think he more reacted than planned that poe would shoot him there and then.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so, for Combat sense, since it lasts 10 rounds...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent topic folks!

In my game, I just allow some of those abilities to be used as a reaction, at a penalty.

if the character uses an action to ready them earlier, no penalty.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Combat Sense really shouldn't exist. They basically took Zahn's narrative description of what it's like to use the Lightsaber Combat power and turned it into a completely separate power.

And I'm not a fan of any power that automatically stays up for X# of rounds. It starts to feel too much like D&D magic spells instead of the Force.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'm not a fan of any power that automatically stays up for X# of rounds. It starts to feel too much like D&D magic spells instead of the Force.

I'm not a fan of that either. It just feels like a lazy way to get around MAPs.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Combat Sense really shouldn't exist. They basically took Zahn's narrative description of what it's like to use the Lightsaber Combat power and turned it into a completely separate power.

And I'm not a fan of any power that automatically stays up for X# of rounds. It starts to feel too much like D&D magic spells instead of the Force.


I think it exists for those who don't use a lightsaber but want a bonus in combat. or those who only have sense, and not control.

While there were not many in the old d6, there were some force users who were not jedi.

Regarding the duration - no opinion. I do admit it does feel inconsistent.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
I think it exists for those who don't use a lightsaber but want a bonus in combat. or those who only have sense, and not control.

While there were not many in the old d6, there were some force users who were not jedi.

A fair point, but I'd much prefer a more generalized Force Combat power that everyone can use, with the individual disciplines improving their preferred skill, which then stacks with whatever bonuses are generated by the Power itself.

There could potentially be different grades of Force Combat powers, with one starting at just Sense (with Sense providing a bonus to Attack/Defense), the next being Control/Sense (with Control adding a bonus to Damage) and the final Master-level one being Control/Sense/Alter (adding the ability to use Telekinesis in combat, either as a stand-alone or in combination with a lightsaber or other weapon).

In fact, I could see a Force user potentially being allowed to transition between the powers as needed. For instance, a Jedi who already has the Control/Sense power up might want to throw his lightsaber and control it telekinetically. Under the current system, that would be two separate powers, but as an alternative, the Jedi could keep the Control and Sense aspects "up" and roll to bring up Alter, as well (factoring in MAPs as standard), without having to drop one power and bring up another one.
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