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garhkal
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 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Telekinesis & Time To Use |
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| Whill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Taking all the powers out of alter, to make them 'sense+alter, imo is doing force users a disservice, as they'd effectively need two force abilities then, to Use any 'alter' power. |
All three of them? And two of the three alter-only powers are Dark Side powers. Most all powers that have an alter aspect in RAW are already in conjunction with one or both other Force skills. |
True, two of the 3 existing CORE powers for alter, are dark side.. BUT if you're going to just neuter it, neuter it fully. REMOVE alter period.
| Whill wrote: | | And besides, every Jedi character is going to learn sense before alter, so they already have sense before they could learn Telekinesis anyway. We could move the Proximity modifier to sense and make the base difficulty Very Easy. |
That's a speculative assumption that every force user learns sense before alter... OR is that how You DM it??
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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That's how I GM it, because I have a Force attribute with two defaulting skills, control and sense. So being Force-sensitive means you are born with control and sense (although they may not manifest until a later age). So any PC starting with the Force attribute means they start with at least control and sense.
Alter is an advanced skill in my game, so a Force-sensitive character may or may not have it. If a character learns it any point in their life, they learned/learn it at some point after their Force attribute or control and sense reach 3D.
RAW says "usually"...
| R&E p.140 wrote: | | A Jedi student will most often learn control first, although some teachers will begin instruction with the sense skill. Alter is usually taught last. |
Having alter be taught first just so a character can learn Telekinesis without knowing sense doesn't address the fact that Yoda indicates you have to sense the Force to use telekinesis in the film. And WEG wrote on R&E p.147, "The target must be in sight of the Jedi" when TESB shows that after Luke's failed attempt, the X-wing is completely submerged at 1:10:14. And then Yoda closes his eyes completely before he begins and doesn't reopen them until the ship is set down on land. This proves that WEG isn't perfect and they can get it wrong.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I'd suggest that, based on what we see in the films, a Force user should be taught Sense first, then Control, then Alter. You can't control or alter what you can't perceive, so the trainee should learn to feel and comprehend the Force - both in them and around them - before they start trying to impose their will on it.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'd suggest that, based on what we see in the films, a Force user should be taught Sense first, then Control, then Alter. You can't control or alter what you can't perceive, so the trainee should learn to feel and comprehend the Force - both in them and around them - before they start trying to impose their will on it. |
That is logical for RAW, but if you have a Force attribute with three defaulting Force skills, isn't it all or nothing? If you have the Force attribute you have all three skills, and if you don't then you have none? The whole reason I made alter an advanced skill is so it would not default, since it is easy to imagine characters who are Force-sensitive without having alter.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | If you have the Force attribute you have all three skills, and if you don't then you have none? The whole reason I made alter an advanced skill is so it would not default, since it is easy to imagine characters who are Force-sensitive without having alter. |
I solved this by having the new rules for Powers take precedence over the rules for Attributes and Skills, so that the Force Attribute only applies to the character's Talent Powers or to Moments of Insight (which require spending a FP). I suppose they could learn powers with just the Attribute as a base, but there's only so much they can do before they have to start improving the skills themselves. My personal preference would be to have them learn the skills , even if just to +1 above Attribute, before they start learning Powers. Of course, most Force-user PCs will be past that point at the start of gameplay.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I solved this by having the new rules for Powers take precedence over the rules for Attributes and Skills, so that the Force Attribute only applies to the character's Talent Powers or to Moments of Insight (which require spending a FP). I suppose they could learn powers with just the Attribute as a base, but there's only so much they can do before they have to start improving the skills themselves. My personal preference would be to have them learn the skills , even if just to +1 above Attribute, before they start learning Powers. Of course, most Force-user PCs will be past that point at the start of gameplay. |
I replied to this in your new Force powers thread...
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=209396#209396
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | That's how I GM it, because I have a Force attribute with two defaulting skills, control and sense. So being Force-sensitive means you are born with control and sense (although they may not manifest until a later age). So any PC starting with the Force attribute means they start with at least control and sense.
Alter is an advanced skill in my game, so a Force-sensitive character may or may not have it. If a character learns it any point in their life, they learned/learn it at some point after their Force attribute or control and sense reach 3D.
RAW says "usually"...
| R&E p.140 wrote: | | A Jedi student will most often learn control first, although some teachers will begin instruction with the sense skill. Alter is usually taught last. |
Having alter be taught first just so a character can learn Telekinesis without knowing sense doesn't address the fact that Yoda indicates you have to sense the Force to use telekinesis in the film. And WEG wrote on R&E p.147, "The target must be in sight of the Jedi" when TESB shows that after Luke's failed attempt, the X-wing is completely submerged at 1:10:14. And then Yoda closes his eyes completely before he begins and doesn't reopen them until the ship is set down on land. This proves that WEG isn't perfect and they can get it wrong. |
Its not really adherence to raw for this.. ITs more how ive seen some players make up their pcs (and the dm's who let them). Such as one Saber rake who had sense and alter (no control), Someone who a DM allowed to take the mystic template from tales of the jedi with Control and alter (instead of sense), two quixotic jedis who the DM let change out their starting one die in sense, or alter.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:53 am Post subject: |
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That said, i CAN Easily see and potentially understand someone learning via the Jedi way, going Control first, THEN sense, AND alter final.. Sort of you have to get an associates (control), before bachelors (Sense) before you can then work on a masters degree (alter)...
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That said, i CAN Easily see and potentially understand someone learning via the Jedi way, going Control first, THEN sense, AND alter final.. Sort of you have to get an associates (control), before bachelors (Sense) before you can then work on a masters degree (alter)... |
Sure. One could also argue that you have to sense the Force first to be able to do anything with it, including internal control. 2e designated Force characters as "Force-sensitive" so it makes some sense that sense might come first. Little Anakin had some kind of danger sense without any training, so he exhibited sense ability before control powers.
| garhkal wrote: | | ITs more how ive seen some players make up their pcs (and the dm's who let them). Such as one Saber rake who had sense and alter (no control), Someone who a DM allowed to take the mystic template from tales of the jedi with Control and alter (instead of sense), two quixotic jedis who the DM let change out their starting one die in sense, or alter. |
Sure. But in the general Force attribute concept that many of us here use, you have all three Force skills at the same time if you are Force-sensitive at all (but you may not have yet learned any powers in one or two of the skills). That really eliminates those characters that only have one or two of the three skills.
I feel that valid arguments can be made for both control and sense being first, so I resolve the dilemma by having a Force attribute that gives you both at the same time. But I feel if you have the attribute you have the skills and should have some basic abilities that use those skills, even if you haven't improved the Force skills above attribute. That's why I made alter an advanced skill, so there is no attribute default for alter and a character doesn't automatically have access to powers that use alter if they don't have the alter skill. Alter gives you more overt Jedi powers that change things out in the world with the Force.
I strongly feel that all interpretations of Chirrut Imwe as not being Force-sensitive are absurd because he so obviously has the Force in the film. He was as Jedi as he possibly could be without being a Jedi. So my interpretation is he has The Force attribute, he has control and sense, but he does not have alter.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Something else that occurred to me w/r/t this: larger objects seem to take longer to start moving, almost like Telekinesis has an aspect of energy applied over time. TK users seem to be able to move small objects around relatively quickly, but the larger their target object gets, the more time it seems to need to get moving. The speed aspect appears to be something a Jedi can overcome in case of emergency (see Yoda saving Anakin and Obi-wan at the end of AotC), but that can be explained by higher Difficulty requirements.
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Whill
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:29 am Post subject: |
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So, perhaps the more you beat the TN by, for the weight you're trying to lift, the faster you can move it.. Starting iirc at the base 10m/round... Every 3 over, adds 2m, or something like that.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So, perhaps the more you beat the TN by, for the weight you're trying to lift, the faster you can move it.. Starting iirc at the base 10m/round... Every 3 over, adds 2m, or something like that. |
I like that; it dovetails nicely with my '+1 damage per 3 over' house rule.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Glad you liked it.
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Whill
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