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Jedi Ace pilot Force powers ?
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if those were the same Gamorreans that show up later in Book of Boba Fett? Probably not, but then they never were named, and all Gamorreans seem to look the same (or very similar).

FWIW, I always got the impression he was just knocking them out, too, rather than killing them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Or as some suggested he used affect mind, to MAKE THEM think they were choking.

That works. It just had to seem dark. Luke didn't need to kill the guards.

I will never accept that this is anything other than an attempt to retcon the films to comply with WEG's ultimately flawed rules for the Dark Side and for TK Kill.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ANd that's your choice C..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Or as some suggested he used affect mind, to MAKE THEM think they were choking.

I will never accept that this is anything other than an attempt to retcon the films to comply with WEG's ultimately flawed rules for the Dark Side and for TK Kill.

For one, that's a false dichotomy. The suggestion that Luke used Affect Mind to avoid Dark Side Points, and your opposition to that, are both based on the premise that Luke didn't earn DSPs. All we know for certain is that he didn't turn to the Dark Side completely at that point, because he almost did later on the Death Star (but still didn't). (1) If that were a roleplaying scenario and Luke was a PC, maybe he would earn DSPs. (2) Luke is not a PC.

It's not all or nothing. It can be true that WEG's Dark Side Point rules are flawed and still possible that Luke didn't use Telekinetic Kill on the guards. Saying it was Affect Mind isn't necessarily support for RAW supremacy. We are individual GMs talking about the parameters for a simulation for original adventures that seem like they take place in the same universe as the films. We can have different interpretations of the films. I think that would be a really creative use of Affect Mind, but I definitely also feel that RAW isn't perfect and needs tweaked.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
... WEG's Dark Side Point rules are flawed ...


For what its worth, I came up with these optional rules quite some time ago.

Corruption Alternate Dark Side Rules
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Whill wrote:
... WEG's Dark Side Point rules are flawed ...


For what its worth, I came up with these optional rules quite some time ago.

Corruption Alternate Dark Side Rules


Can you please verify that link. When I click it, it takes me to a post on a TIE Droid.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...on this tangent....

There are many issues with the DSP system in our beloved d6 game.
I won't go into the why here (that is another conversation over drinks and steak).

Like many folks, I have my own house rules for DSP, when once I get fully typed up. will share here. I was heavily inspired by the Morality system in FFG.

Take a look at the morality system from FFG Force and Destiny - it is one of the best interpretations of how to do a dark side system that I have seen.

While it is far from perfect (even it needs a tiny bit of tweaking) it is really good.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to take a look at that in Force and Destiny, pakman. Especially since I now own all three (nearly identical) books, after inheriting them after my good buddy passed away. Crying or Very sad

FWIW, I don't subscribe to the "Luke is not a PC" point of view, Whill. If the movies are reflections of the world of Star Wars (and yes, I completely understand your "everybody has their own view of the SW Universe" concept), then Luke is a primary protagonist of the story. As such, a game system (whether d6 or FFG's game or any other) simply models what we see on the screen.

As such, it wouldn't be 'wrong' if I ran a game where the PCs are Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, etc. That's not something I've ever done, but one could certainly do that. In such a case, Luke would be a PC.

But even in our regular games, where Luke would simply be an NPC, it doesn't change the fact that we're going to see the actions and reactions and choices and decisions that the protagonists (Luke included) do as ways to interpret the game system. I do this all the time when I watch movies: put RPG terms out there as the action is happening. "James Bond just used a Hero Point" or "fortunately that character just made a great Dodge roll", for example.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The suggestion that Luke used Affect Mind to avoid Dark Side Points, and your opposition to that, are both based on the premise that Luke didn't earn DSPs. All we know for certain is that he didn't turn to the Dark Side completely at that point, because he almost did later on the Death Star (but still didn't). (1) If that were a roleplaying scenario and Luke was a PC, maybe he would earn DSPs. (2) Luke is not a PC.

I believe Matthias777 put it quite nicely succinctly here.

For whatever reason, WEG decided to give Luke two DSPs as of the end of the Battle of Endor, and the possible situations where he could've earned them are pretty much the throne room battle and the encounter with the Gamorreans. In the films, there are cues that let you know what sort of power is being used. For Affect Mind, it's a subtle gesture with a suggestive phrase; for Force Choke, it's a raised hand and the target starts gasping for breath. At Jabba's Palace, we see the visual cues for Force Choke, not Affect Mind. As Matthias said, if you exclude everything else except the films, you'd have no reason to believe Luke did anything other than Force Choke the Gamorreans. The only motivation to use Affect Mind to make them think they were being choked is if Force Choke isn't an option, and the only reason why it wouldn't be is because of the way WEG wrote Luke's stats and the rules for TK Kill.

Now, as you have said more than once, no stats are canon, and I agree. We find examples of things that WEG got wrong all the time. Personally, I think Luke merits one DSP as of the end of RotJ, if we assume that he gave in to the Dark Side to beat down Vader in the throne room. But the emotional stakes are completely different during the Gamorrean encounter. In the throne room, he was already in a state of heightened emotions, and Vader had pushed him past his limits with a threat he couldn't ignore. None of that applied at Jabba's palace; there was no reason for him to give in to the Dark Side - twice - just to disable a couple mooks who got in his way.

Bottom line, the evidence supports Luke using Force Choke on the Gamorreans, not Affect Mind, and the only reason one would need to say otherwise is in an attempt to square what we see in RotJ with the WEG rules for mandatory DSP when using TK Kill, so as to justify Luke not receiving a DSP due to an "unforced error". It's far more reasonable and plausible that WEG was wrong and that their rules need to be re-written.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Well...on this tangent....

There are many issues with the DSP system in our beloved d6 game.
I won't go into the why here (that is another conversation over drinks and steak).

Like many folks, I have my own house rules for DSP, when once I get fully typed up. will share here. I was heavily inspired by the Morality system in FFG.

Take a look at the morality system from FFG Force and Destiny - it is one of the best interpretations of how to do a dark side system that I have seen.

While it is far from perfect (even it needs a tiny bit of tweaking) it is really good.

I only have the core book for FaD, but I'll have to take a look at that some time. I'm looking forward to seeing your house rules!

DougRed4 wrote:
FWIW, I don't subscribe to the "Luke is not a PC" point of view, Whill. If the movies are reflections of the world of Star Wars (and yes, I completely understand your "everybody has their own view of the SW Universe" concept), then Luke is a primary protagonist of the story. As such, a game system (whether d6 or FFG's game or any other) simply models what we see on the screen.

As such, it wouldn't be 'wrong' if I ran a game where the PCs are Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, etc. That's not something I've ever done, but one could certainly do that. In such a case, Luke would be a PC.

But even in our regular games, where Luke would simply be an NPC, it doesn't change the fact that we're going to see the actions and reactions and choices and decisions that the protagonists (Luke included) do as ways to interpret the game system. I do this all the time when I watch movies: put RPG terms out there as the action is happening.

Unless you have players running the film characters in an RPG adventure, then factually, Luke would be an NPC. And if players did play the film characters as PCs, you still wouldn't run them through the film as an adventure, because the players would already know the plot. That means the films are still a linear narrative. I also watch movies and think about things in game terms, but the DSP rules were written to focus on player behavior, so it doesn't really matter how many DSPs Luke had as RotJ was happening and the GM rolls to see if Luke turned to the Dark Side or not with each DSP because the outcome was scripted. There is no player to deter from turning their PC to the Dark Side...

CRMcNeill wrote:
I believe Matthias777 put it quite nicely succinctly here.

For whatever reason, WEG decided to give Luke two DSPs as of the end of the Battle of Endor, and the possible situations where he could've earned them are pretty much the throne room battle and the encounter with the Gamorreans. In the films, there are cues that let you know what sort of power is being used. For Affect Mind, it's a subtle gesture with a suggestive phrase; for Force Choke, it's a raised hand and the target starts gasping for breath. At Jabba's Palace, we see the visual cues for Force Choke, not Affect Mind. As Matthias said, if you exclude everything else except the films, you'd have no reason to believe Luke did anything other than Force Choke the Gamorreans. The only motivation to use Affect Mind to make them think they were being choked is if Force Choke isn't an option, and the only reason why it wouldn't be is because of the way WEG wrote Luke's stats and the rules for TK Kill.

Now, as you have said more than once, no stats are canon, and I agree. We find examples of things that WEG got wrong all the time. Personally, I think Luke merits one DSP as of the end of RotJ, if we assume that he gave in to the Dark Side to beat down Vader in the throne room. But the emotional stakes are completely different during the Gamorrean encounter. In the throne room, he was already in a state of heightened emotions, and Vader had pushed him past his limits with a threat he couldn't ignore. None of that applied at Jabba's palace; there was no reason for him to give in to the Dark Side - twice - just to disable a couple mooks who got in his way.

As I stated in the quote you captured, maybe he would have earned DSPs from the guards. The movie existed before the game. Narratively, the audience is supposed to be alarmed and concerned that Luke is acting like Vader. It is showing that Luke has the potential to turn to the Dark Side, to make the later beat-down scene more dramatic because Luke may actually turn to the Dark Side there (and he undisputedly would have earned DSPs there). But all that is neither here nor there.

It bears repeating in this thread that DSPs were invented to serve as a detergent to immoral behavior by PCs, because the end result of getting too many (and how many was random) was that the character irrevocably became an NPC. It was effective. 2e added downsides to having them and redemption rules, but the focus was still on PCs. DSPs in the stats of NPCs are meaningless to the game because there is no player behavior to be concerned about, and the GM will play the NPCs as good or evil as needed to serve the story.

And this tangent is going astray from my point that it isn't just about character emotion, which is really hard to judge in a roleplaying game setting. If a Jedi PC calmly murders an innocent, it is still murder. The player doesn't have to act angry or hateful to warrant his PC getting a DSP. Character morality is the main factor in a roleplaying game setting (unless the Force power is inherently Dark Side, as determined by the GM).

Luke was very calm in Jabba's Palace. If Luke were a PC, that was an RPG adventure, and he did murder the guards with Force chokes, then he should earn two DSPs, one for each. He wouldn't have to have had a negative emotional state because it would simply be immoral to murder two mooks who easily could have been dealt with another way.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Bottom line, the evidence supports Luke using Force Choke on the Gamorreans, not Affect Mind, and the only reason one would need to say otherwise is in an attempt to square what we see in RotJ with the WEG rules for mandatory DSP when using TK Kill, so as to justify Luke not receiving a DSP due to an "unforced error". It's far more reasonable and plausible that WEG was wrong and that their rules need to be re-written.

Is that what this is all about? Why is your post directed to me? Where on this forum have I ever shared the RAW supremacist view that all Force powers must come with a DSP if WEG said they did? I've pointed out many things I think WEG got wrong. You didn't notice that I actually made a rule against RAW supremacy here?

Whill wrote:
Force users can telekinetically choke without killing, as Vader demonstrated in the original Star Wars. Luke could have done that to get them to back off, as that is exactly what happened. He could have let the Force choke go before it actually killed them. I'd say at most they passed out unconscious, so maybe it was a 'Telekinetic Stun.'

CRMcNeill, this was a little up this thread. I have never read that thread you linked above, but after a quick glance I see this was your solution too back then. It seems we agree more than disagree. Of course, I do not think a Jedi PC making guards pass unconscious would warrant DSPs. But then again, what Luke did wouldn't be called 'Telekinetic Kill' if they weren't killed. To be completely fair, this case would be more of a WEG omission than an error.

There is another power for telekinetic stun, or the TK power should be renamed and expanded. Either way, there shouldn't be any DSPs for using the Force to knock guards unconscious.
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