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"Madclaw"
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
TauntaunScout wrote:
That's just theater weapons for you. The "purpose" of a Ryyk blade was to look cool in a movie. There's been functionally stupid, but visually cool, weapons being designed for theatrical combat in pretty much every culture at all times.

Ryyk blades pre-date the movie. They were first mentioned in Heir to the Empire, but never really described beyond being "a pair of wicked looking knives," small enough to be concealed under a baldric. It wasn't until the EGtW&T that they were given form, but were no longer knives. Instead, one was a more like a machete, and the other was a tonfa with a blade in place of a club. Apparently the writers for the EGtW&T had an overly broad definition of what constituted a knife.


They were big fans of Paul Hogan.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THAT'S not a Rykk blade... Laughing
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
The "purpose" of a Ryyk blade was to look cool in a movie. There's been functionally stupid, but visually cool, weapons being designed for theatrical combat in pretty much every culture at all times.

Look good in the mind's eye while reading the novel? Look good in comic book art? Ryyk blades haven't appeared in any versions of any movies.

IMO Wookiees don't need special blades. They have bowcasters and they are very tough as it is.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did see one depiction of the "bladed nightstick" version of the Ryyk Blade that I rather liked; the Wookiee was wielding it with the spine flush against his forearm. Viewed that way, it has interesting possibilities as a parrying weapon alongside something more conventional.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I did see one depiction of the "bladed nightstick" version of the Ryyk Blade that I rather liked; the Wookiee was wielding it with the spine flush against his forearm. Viewed that way, it has interesting possibilities as a parrying weapon alongside something more conventional.

Fan art? Link?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
I did see one depiction of the "bladed nightstick" version of the Ryyk Blade that I rather liked; the Wookiee was wielding it with the spine flush against his forearm. Viewed that way, it has interesting possibilities as a parrying weapon alongside something more conventional.

Fan art? Link?

It was fan art, but now I can't seem to find it...

Found something similar, though...



Basically using one blade of each depicted type as a disparate combo set.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:00 pm    Post subject: Wookiees don't need claws Reply with quote

I updated the Madclaw Wookieepedia article (that I had referred to on the first page) to correct the first 1992 reference WEG made to Wookiees using their claws being dishonorable, as CRMcNeill pointed out. (The Heir to the Empire Sourcebook came out a few months before Blue Vader.)

MrNexx wrote:
So, does anyone know the origin of "Wookiees don't use their claws in combat"?

While the origin of Wookiees not using their claws in combat is the HttE Sourcebook p.99, the origin of the claws themselves is the HttE novel.

Chewbacca's hands are never clearly seen in the classic trilogy. Timothy Zahn felt Wookiees would naturally have claws just because they evolved from an arboreal species. Wookiees as designed seem primarily based on great apes, which have finger nails. They are arboreal without claws because they use their hands and strength to grasp branches. Wookiees have cities and are technological, but their more primitive ancestors would not have needed claws just because they are arboreal. I find Zahn's logic deeply flawed. Also, the WEG game puts the climbing ability under Strength, and Wookiees tend to be strong so in the game Wookiees are already good climbers without a bonus to climbing.

Zahn admitted that when he added claws to Wookiees, he didn't think why they had never been portrayed as using them, so WEG contrived the honor thing that they are only supposed to be used for climbing and not combat. Instead of Wookiees having claws to make them even more uber at climbing than they already are but they can't use the claws for combat for cultural reasons, wouldn't it be much simpler to just say Wookiees don't even have the claws that they don't actually need in the first place? That way there's no need to contrive a reason they don't use them.

How about they don't use claws because they don't need them so they don't have them?

For me, The Thrawn Trilogy and the Disney Trio are on equal standing continuity-wise: Neither are strictly canon but both have continuity I may choose to use for my game. I've taken planets and aliens from the DT. I also use a lot of character imagery. TFA actually shows Chewbacca's hands and fingers, and in 4K they clearly do not have claws. Since they don't need the claws, that works as suitable imagery for Wookiee hands in my game.

IMO, the fact that Timothy Zahn added them and WEG expanded upon them is not at all a compelling argument for Wookiees to have completely unnecessary claws. Also, Wookiees are shown in the CT picking up people and throwing them. It would be hard to not accidentally use the claws in combat, so again, it is just easier if they don't have them in the first place.

YMMV
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not so married to the EU that I think the idea deserves to be kept. Considering the number of clawless great apes in the real world that do just fine climbing trees, I could remove them entirely from my EU and they wouldn't be missed. Even Zahn can't hit a home run every time.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Look good in the mind's eye while reading the novel? Look good in comic book art? Ryyk blades haven't appeared in any versions of any movies.


My mistake. I thought they were in Episode II. My memory for the prequels and EU novels gets very hazy, compared to the bandwidth occupied by Kenner toys and Grenadier/Simtac minatures in my brain.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I belive this is a case of lore adapted to the RPG, in that if we look at the Wookie and his potential 5D starting strength, If we then say that he ADDS damage to his Unarmed Attack when using his claws, lets give this +1D like on climbing, then we ha caracter that deals 6D damage on attacks, with most player character ONLY capable of this with a rpeating blaster that is usually not very common to start with or even practical to carry around.

To counter this and to prevent everyone form being a close to immortal ( 5D for the resistance and +XD for his damage dealing) wookie beast running arounfd.

So I suspect this is really the case of lore adapted to the RPG, as wel do see Chewie actually DO use his claws in TFA ( whatever we feel about the sequals, they are canon)
and at the same time we also had absolutely zero referances whatsoever to the terms Madcalw, making me think this is either something to only consider for game mechanical balance or to actually ignore, seeing as being "retconned" to not be a thing
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So when did Chewbacca use his claws in TFA?

[note that I'm not at all suggesting he didn't; I'm merely asking because I honestly don't remember]
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll say it.

Mamatried wrote:
...So I suspect this is really the case of lore adapted to the RPG, as wel do see Chewie actually DO use his claws in TFA ( whatever we feel about the sequals, they are canon)
and at the same time we also had absolutely zero referances whatsoever to the terms Madcalw, making me think this is either something to only consider for game mechanical balance or to actually ignore, seeing as being "retconned" to not be a thing

Please read this whole thread and rewatch TFA before replying again. TFA did not show Chewie using claws. Furthermore, they show his hands in high definition and it it is clear that Chewie does not even have claws.

So as I said, a simpler solution to the problem of Wookiees having claws with a cultural reason not to use them, or Wookiees being OP because of claws, is to simply not give them claws. Many arboreal species do not have claws. Wookiees as designed were meant to be hairy great apes, none of which have claws. Wookiees do not need claws.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'll say it.

Mamatried wrote:
...So I suspect this is really the case of lore adapted to the RPG, as wel do see Chewie actually DO use his claws in TFA ( whatever we feel about the sequals, they are canon)
and at the same time we also had absolutely zero referances whatsoever to the terms Madcalw, making me think this is either something to only consider for game mechanical balance or to actually ignore, seeing as being "retconned" to not be a thing

Please read this whole thread and rewatch TFA before replying again. TFA did not show Chewie using claws. Furthermore, they show his hands in high definition and it it is clear that Chewie does not even have claws.

So as I said, a simpler solution to the problem of Wookiees having claws with a cultural reason not to use them, or Wookiees being OP because of claws, is to simply not give them claws. Many arboreal species do not have claws. Wookiees as designed were meant to be hairy great apes, none of which have claws. Wookiees do not need claws.


I agree that they actually do not need them, though maybe the +1D is warranted due to Khasyk trees and all that. but yes I fully agree that they should not have them, and if they were to use the "climbining ones" in combat I personally would not know it it would actually warrant a bonus in dice, maybe add a +pip bleed to the victim. and as such yes they can culturally be madcalws.

as to TFA I was pretty sure but you proved me wrong.

I still think the main reason was to not make the wookie too OP compared to anything else at the time of 1st ED
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I still think the main reason was to not make the wookie too OP compared to anything else at the time of 1st ED

Wookiees didn't even have claws until The Thrawn Trilogy, near the end of the 1e WEG SW era. Wookiees were already good at climbing without claws. Zahn blew it.
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