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High-end & low-end Nav Computers
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Ning Leihrec
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're in a spacers guild or something your chart fee might be waived in exchange for your latest flight paths. If you're a true tramp with no ties to an organization you'd be charged something like 100-500 for in-sector charts. 500-5,000 for out-of-sector charts. All prices depending on detail and rarity. And you'd be required to share your own charts just to gain access to the store. Thus the aforementioned black market in star charts for those who prefer to keep their logs secret.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus you have those who trail blaze new pathways who should be getting a chunk of each 'chart update' that includes their new route..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Plus you have those who trail blaze new pathways who should be getting a chunk of each 'chart update' that includes their new route..
That's what this is for:
    Scout/Survey Hyperdrive
    Model: Incom Pathfinder-Type Exploration Hyperdrive
    Cost: 10,000 credits plus installation costs
    Weight: 10 metric tons (replaces Backup Hyperdrive)
    Availability: 3
    Hyperdrive Modifier: x6
    Notes:
    -Designed for efficient operations at low speeds. Reduce consumption of Consumables by 50% when using this drive.
    -In game terms, the drive's sensor rating is Search 2 (rounds)/2D.
    Capsule:
    All hyperdrives are equipped with a dedicated Crystal Grav-Field Trap sensor that scans space immediately ahead along the ship's flight path, looking out for mass shadows that indicate the presence of dangerous obstacles. These sensors are relatively basic, scanning only a few seconds ahead (2 rounds, modified by the ship's hyperdrive modifier). This is generally just enough time to engage the drive's automatic cut-out before the ship crashes into the mass shadow and is destroyed.

    A Scout/Survey Drive, however, takes a different approach. Equipped with a small cluster of Crystal Grav-Field Traps, it integrates with the ship's onboard sensors, allowing for more in-depth analysis of detected mass shadows. In addition, because of the drive's slow speed, the ship's crew can detect mass shadows as much as a minute away (2 rounds @ x6 = 12 rounds), time in which the scout ship's crew can get a basic read on the nature of the mass shadow (stellar object, planet, artificial, etc.) it is approaching, and plan accordingly.

    In addition, the sensor will also detect the presence of mass shadows that the ship will pass nearby that are not of sufficient strength to engage the ship's hyperdrive cut-out. Getting a sensor read on such mass shadows is more difficult than analyzing mass shadows directly in the ship's path (+5), but it can alert the crew to new and previously unknown phenomenon that would otherwise have passed blindly by, and that can be very useful to a scout.

    Obviously, at such slow speeds, a ship operating on a scout/survey drive will not go anywhere quickly, and the ship's crew will often spend lots of time focusing on other activities (training, etc). However, the drive is much safer to use when operating outside of known hyperspace lanes, and also gives the ship's crew a basic ability to sense the universe around them even while in hyperspace.

    For obvious reasons, scout/survey drives have also become popular with smugglers, who use the drive's early warning capability to detect and avoid naval interdictions and blockades.

Of course, the problem with selling information is that you can only realistically sell it once, at which point you rapidly begin to lose control of who has access to it. I can't even picture the legal aspects of trying to put a patent on a hyperspace route. The only method I could see even being partially effective would be to blockade the route with a gravity well projector, either in the middle or at both ends, then charge a toll for its use, like a turnpike in space.

It also occurs to me that, if a ship crew wanted to engage in illicit activity, they could purchase a backup navcomputer, conceal it somewhere aboard the ship, then use that navcomp to plot all of the courses that they'd rather not have as public knowledge...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ning Leihrec wrote:
If you're in a spacers guild or something your chart fee might be waived in exchange for your latest flight paths. If you're a true tramp with no ties to an organization you'd be charged something like 100-500 for in-sector charts. 500-5,000 for out-of-sector charts. All prices depending on detail and rarity. And you'd be required to share your own charts just to gain access to the store. Thus the aforementioned black market in star charts for those who prefer to keep their logs secret.

That makes sense.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pursuant to this topic and several stat updates, I've been thinking about ways to include different grades of Navcomputers while not diverging too far from the RAW and into extensive number crunching and bookkeeping.

Rather than the standard Yes/No/Limited (# of Jumps), I'm thinking five grades of Navcomputer, each with a varying modifier to Astrogation Difficulty, along with a maximum number of jumps for the smaller, lower-end ships.
    Limited
    Cost: 500 credits + 100 per jump (Availability: 1)
    Weight: Minimal.
    Limit: 2-10 jumps
    Modifier: +5 to Astrogation Difficulty
    Capsule: This is the smallest available navcomputer, generally used only on ships that lack the carrying capacity for one of the larger models, such as starfighters. It is also commonly built into astromech droids (replaces the Astrogation Buffer). It only has sufficient memory for routes in a small area, and is generally loaded only with local star charts. Once it has reached its limit, the navcomputer must be serviced and loaded with updated charts from a navcomputer of Standard or better rating.

    Basic
    Cost: 2,000 credits (Availability: 1)
    Weight: 1 ton
    Limit: Unlimited
    Modifier: +5 to Astrogation Difficulty
    Capsule: This model uses the same processor as the Limited model, but with much larger memory capacity. Generally, this model is used on inexpensive ships operating on well-traveled routes.

    Standard
    Cost: 4,000 credits (Availability: 1)
    Weight: 2 tons
    Limit: Unlimited
    Modifier: None
    Capsule: This is the baseline model installed in most starships.

    Advanced
    Cost: 20,000 credits (Availability: 2, F)
    Weight: 20 tons
    Limit: Unlimited
    Modifier: -5 to Astrogation Difficulty
    Capsule: This navcomputer is commonly found aboard military vessels or high-end commercial ships.

    Superior
    Cost: 100,000 credits (Availability: 3, R)
    Weight: 50 tons
    Limit: Unlimited
    Modifier: -10 to Astrogation Difficulty
    Capsule: This state-of-the-art system is found almost exclusively in military service, commonly aboard dedicated scout or navigation support vessels, as well as some command ships.

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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, let's say I have a Type 1 NavComputer, and travel regularly between Hoth and Bespin. Is that one trip (Hoth<->Bespin) or two trips (Hoth->Bespin and Bespin->Hoth)?

With the Astrogation penalty, does that apply to jumps in my memory, or just attempts to make jumps not specifically programed, but still available from the star charts I have? For example, if I don't have Hoth->Anoat->Bespin specifically programmed, can I make it with a -5, or is it simply beyond my Navicomputer?

At what level Navicomputer can you start making "novel" jumps? At what point can the Navicomputer say, "Well, no one has jumped from Naboo to Trandosha before, but I can figure it out from the data available"?

And, as an avid user of Google Maps, at what point does the Navicomputer start suggesting shortcuts? I know that there's one route in the R&E that, if you go A->B, it's a really long trip, but if you go A->C->B it's down to like, 8 hours. (Looking, it seems like Coruscant to Tattooine is 22 days, but if you go Coruscant->Corelia->Tattooine, it's just 8 hours)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, if you want that level of crunch, then what I just posted isn't the house rule for you. This is basically just to allow characters a degree of customization while still using the existing rules.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although, to address one of your points, something I considered while writing this up was to a Astrogation Difficulty modifier that shifted not just on how well traveled the route was, but the duration of the jump as well, so that a jump of a few hours or so would be made at standard Difficulty, but a day-long jump would be at +10, a one week jump at +20, and so on. These aren't hard numbers, just examples to give you the general idea. However, when combined with what I posted above, it limits the ability of less capable Nav-Computers when trying to plot courses that require detailed information about specific routes.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a thought on this...

Starship stats generally use dice bonuses to express how capable a piece of equipment is at performing a given task when combined with the operator's skill level. Maneuverability, Sensors and Fire Control use this method, and I've expanded it to include Shield Control dice. This got me thinking about applying the same rule in the context of a Navcomputer.

In the rule posted above, I went with Difficulty modifiers to represent different grades of navcomputers, but an alternate take would be a variant that provides a dice bonus/penalty.

At the moment, I'm picturing a positive/negative range, with low-end navcomputers having a -2D rating, while the opposite end of the spectrum would have +2D or +3D. An alternate possibility would be to start at 0D and go as high as 4D or 5D.

In addition, I would repurpose the "Limited" version to represent navcomps that lack the storage capacity for large map archives. Any navcomputer with (Limited) after their D rating suffers a -1D penalty for every jump until the ship can return to base and refresh its nav data. This would replace the Limited Jump Navcomputers found on most starfighters. Ships with greater capacity like the X-Wing would have a reduced penalty like -1 instead of -1D.

So, for example, an A-Wing with "Navcomputer: Limited (3 jumps)" would instead have "Navcomputer: 1D (Limited, -1D)", so it can make one jump at Astrogation +1D, the next jump at Astrogation +0D (-1D), a third at Astrogation -1D (-2D) and so on. An X-Wing would have Nav Computer: 1D (Limited, -1), so it can make one jump at Astrogation +1D, the next at Astrogation +2 (-1), the third at Astrogation +1 (-2), etc.

Ships without (Limited) after their Nav Dice would be ships with enough Storage Capacity to maintain large databanks that would only need to be updated every few months or so, which would apply to capital ships and most transports, with the bonus scaling up based on the size and navigation capability of the ship.

Part of what I like about this is the consistency of it, that it uses the same metric of capability as all the other systems on the ship, in that it gives a dice bonus based on how well the ship's systems are capable of performing the task at hand.

Thoughts?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, coming back around to this, I'm thinking that different grades of Astrogation computers need to be separated into at least two parts: the processor and the database. The Processor would be rated in D, like Fire Control, which is added to the crew's Astrogation skill when plotting a jump, and then the Database would be rated in broad terms (Limited +5, Limited +3, Limited +1, and Unlimited) based on how much route data it can hold.

So, the Processor would have a range of 0D to 4D, with 0D being the low end (installed on starfighters and ships operating on a limited number of routes) and 4D at the extreme upper end, used on dedicated scout or pathfinder platforms (usually very expensive).

The Database entry would have four different levels, with the three lowest (Limited) having a modifier that increases in Difficulty with every jump. There's also room for a rule that allows the pilot to ignore the modifier if he's making the same jump, but in reverse (as in, if the ship jumps from System A to System B, then turns around and jumps back to System A, the Difficulty doesn't increase)

So, a Navcomputer entry on a basic Space Transport Stat would look something like so:
    Nav Computer: 1D (Limited +1)
Whereas a low-end Navcomputer on a starfighter (say, the basic ones on A-Wings and B-Wings) would look thusly:
    Nav Computer: 0D (Limited +5)
And an ultra-high end Navcomputer on something like an Imperial Intelligence Recon frigate would look like this :
    Nav Computer: 4D (Unlimited)

That's the basic framework I'm looking at. I'm partial to it because it allows for various grades of hyperdrives using a consistent rule for different grades of ship systems (as in, providing Dice Bonuses to operator skills, in the same manner as Sensors and Fire Control), without completely abandoning the idea from the RAW of ships having a limited amount of onboard data storage capacity.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pursuant to a conversation with pakman, I felt like giving this a bump. I think I'm going to replace the Limited system with a linear scale of Navcomputers, ranging in ability from -3D up to 5D (possibly even higher for central navigation mainframes and the like). This modifier will be applied to the Crew's Astrogation skill, representing an aggregate of the Navcomputer's route data capacity and processing power. From there, larger ships would have larger, more powerful systems, and their Navcomputer Dice would scale up accordingly.

For conversion, what I'm picturing is having the Limited Comps start at "Limited to 10 Jumps" = 0D. Then, subtract 1 pip for every Jump below 10, so the X-Wing and Y-Wing would have 0D, the SoroSuub Preybird (5 jumps) would have -1D+2, the Skipray Blastboat (4 Jumps) would have -2D, and the A-Wing and B-Wing (2 jumps) would have -2D+2. For Light Freighters and Capital Ships, I'm a little less sure how I want to proceed. Obviously, low-end freighters having a 1D Navcomp is appropriate, and I do think Military-Grade Navcomps should be 1D higher than their civilian size equivalents. I also think civilian scouts and couriers should have access to the equivalent of Military-Grade, albeit at F or R Availability. Any thoughts or suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.

Of course, this also opens the door to keeping the Nav Buffer system in some fashion, although it is in dire need of more structure. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:
    -Mothership / Space Station calculates the route (using its higher Navcomputer rating to get a better, more accurate course).

    -Route is transferred to subordinate craft, either in its hangars or nearby within Comms range (which gets the Communications skill involved, but also introduces the possibility of the transmission getting intercepted in combat, thus the development of little tricks like the Cracken Twist).

    -The receiving craft may now use of that data on a Very Easy Astrogation roll (regardless of the jump's original calculation Difficulty).
I see this side-by-side system working well for fighter groups with "normal" skill level NPC pilots who need their hands held for complicated jumps, while simultaneously allowing "hero" pilots with higher skill levels to make use of fighters for independent operations.

Anyway, just wanted to get this in writing.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I think I'm going to replace the Limited system with a linear scale of Navcomputers, ranging in ability from -3D up to 5D (possibly even higher for central navigation mainframes and the like). This modifier will be applied to the Crew's Astrogation skill, representing an aggregate of the Navcomputer's route data capacity and processing power. From there, larger ships would have larger, more powerful systems, and their Navcomputer Dice would scale up accordingly.

For conversion, what I'm picturing is having the Limited Comps start at "Limited to 10 Jumps" = 0D. Then, subtract 1 pip for every Jump below 10, so the X-Wing and Y-Wing would have 0D, the SoroSuub Preybird (5 jumps) would have -1D+2

Based on your formula, I think you mean -1D-2 for this one.

Quote:
...the A-Wing and B-Wing (2 jumps) would have -2D+2.

Likewise, I think you mean -2D-2 here.

Quote:
Obviously, low-end freighters having a 1D Navcomp is appropriate, and I do think Military-Grade Navcomps should be 1D higher than their civilian size equivalents. I also think civilian scouts and couriers should have access to the equivalent of Military-Grade, albeit at F or R Availability. Any thoughts or suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.

I think I like this concept. The films do not show astrogation mishaps. The RAW astrogation system seems be mostly based on Han Solo's description of it to Luke in ANH, which was a rushed case. Light freighters defaulting to a standard navicomputer that provides a +1D bonus to the astrogator's astrogation roll would help mishaps be more rare.

Quote:
Of course, this also opens the door to keeping the Nav Buffer system in some fashion, although it is in dire need of more structure. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:
    -Mothership / Space Station calculates the route (using its higher Navcomputer rating to get a better, more accurate course).

    -Route is transferred to subordinate craft, either in its hangars or nearby within Comms range (which gets the Communications skill involved, but also introduces the possibility of the transmission getting intercepted in combat, thus the development of little tricks like the Cracken Twist).

    -The receiving craft may now use of that data on a Very Easy Astrogation roll (regardless of the jump's original calculation Difficulty).
I see this side-by-side system working well for fighter groups with "normal" skill level NPC pilots who need their hands held for complicated jumps, while simultaneously allowing "hero" pilots with higher skill levels to make use of fighters for independent operations.

It has always been my concept of navicomputers with limited jumps (including stored jumps on an astromech droid) that the droid or limited navicomputer is linked directly to the standard navicomputer to program them. As far as transmission of the data from one ship to another (like the Rebel Fleet in its journey from Sullust to Endor), a communications roll being involved and a VE astrogation roll to implement the data makes sense.

However I personally do not see any need to give the limited navicomputers 0D or negative dice code values. I am ok with the technological prohibition of not being able to calculate new routes at all and them having the limited max of programmed routes. Of course astrogators in these situations wouldn't get any bonus for the VE roll to implement transmitted routes, but they shouldn't need it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Based on your formula, I think you mean -1D-2 for this one.
Quote:
Likewise, I think you mean -2D-2 here.

I get what you mean, but I just can’t wrap my head around the different notation. I prefer to interpret it as “subtract the value ‘2D+2’ or ‘1D+2’ from the given dice total, so a player with 4D Astrogation would subtract a D and 2 pips.

Quote:
However I personally do not see any need to give the limited navicomputers 0D or negative dice code values. I am ok with the technological prohibition of not being able to calculate new routes at all and them having the limited max of programmed routes. Of course astrogators in these situations wouldn't get any bonus for the VE roll to implement transmitted routes, but they shouldn't need it.

My feeling is that having a negative dice code on a limited nav comp best encapsulates the feel of the RAW’s Limited system (as in, only having enough data to calculate basic routes within a few days’ radius of the fighter’s starting point) while still allowing the pilot a degree of freedom when calculating routes.

Important to note that this will be paired with a pending house rule that varies the Difficulty of Astrogation rolls based on a given jump’s length and how well known the route is. I’ve discussed this previously here; all that’s missing is a modifier for the jump’s length, really.

I also like it in the sense that it gives a quantifiable drawback to consider when a pilot PC is picking their fighter of choice. Sure, an A-Wing is faster and more maneuverable than an X-Wing, but it’s a lot harder for an A-Wing to operate independently.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Based on your formula, I think you mean -1D-2 for this one.
Quote:
Likewise, I think you mean -2D-2 here.

I get what you mean, but I just can’t wrap my head around the different notation. I prefer to interpret it as “subtract the value ‘2D+2’ or ‘1D+2’ from the given dice total, so a player with 4D Astrogation would subtract a D and 2 pips.

If you mustn't eliminate the "+" from the original expression, then please at least notate them this way: -(1D+2) and -(2D+2). That way the expressions are still mathematically correct with respect to the distributive property.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2023 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
If you mustn't eliminate the "+" from the original expression, then please at least notate them this way: -(1D+2) and -(2D+2). That way the expressions are still mathematically correct with respect to the distributive property.

Honestly, I’m not really a fan of that, either. I can understand why a mathematically minded person would find it objectionable, but it just rubs me the wrong way for some undefinable reason.
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