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Alternate Coordination Bonus Chart
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:32 pm    Post subject: Combined Actions Reply with quote

A general question for anyone not related to the alternate bonus progression but rather to combined actions in general. According to RAW...

Quote:
The character in the group with the highest command skill is the leader, he can only command as many characters as he has commend skill dice...

If a task is very easy and the characters are highly skilled or experienced, you may even allow the commander to combine actions for more characters than he has command skill dice.

How do you handle large-scale combined actions? Do you ignore the coordinated character number limit? Do you have a hierarchy of commanders coordinating sub-commanders?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Combined Actions Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
A general question for anyone not related to the alternate bonus progression but rather to combined actions in general. According to RAW...

Quote:
The character in the group with the highest command skill is the leader, he can only command as many characters as he has commend skill dice...

If a task is very easy and the characters are highly skilled or experienced, you may even allow the commander to combine actions for more characters than he has command skill dice.

How do you handle large-scale combined actions? Do you ignore the coordinated character number limit? Do you have a hierarchy of commanders coordinating sub-commanders?


I tend towards sub-commanders.

So, I have 6D in Command... natural talent and just out of OCS. I can tell Yellow, Red, Gold, Vermillion, Cyan, and Skull squadron leaders what to do to coordinate the attack, based on the tactical battle map. Red Leader has 5D, so he can handle five subordinates. Gold Leader only has 3D, so while he has six people in the squadron, he can't effectively coordinate all of them... he hands half the team off to Gold 2, who doesn't get MY command bonus, but can control the other two guys in the squad.

Now, ideally, Red and Gold Leaders will use MY command bonus to aid their Command roll, which spreads out the ability. But if Gold Leader is making a bombing run on an important target, he might take my bonus and apply it to his Starship Weapons skill, and kinda leave the rest of his squad to hang, since his job is important.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: Combined Actions Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
A general question for anyone not related to the alternate bonus progression but rather to combined actions in general. According to RAW...

Quote:
The character in the group with the highest command skill is the leader, he can only command as many characters as he has commend skill dice...

If a task is very easy and the characters are highly skilled or experienced, you may even allow the commander to combine actions for more characters than he has command skill dice.

How do you handle large-scale combined actions? Do you ignore the coordinated character number limit? Do you have a hierarchy of commanders coordinating sub-commanders?


For imperial troops, i generally go by one of the notes from Rules of engagement, where troopers (army/storm/navy) are skilled enough they don't worry about those limits.
For other folks, it works like the modern military.
The comander orders the division officers (usually 6 or so).
THEY then order their platoon leaders (usually around 4-6)
The platoon leaders order their platoon seargeants (2-4)..
The platoon sergeants order their fire squad leaders (2-4)
and the squad leaders order their fire team (2-4).

So a ship commander, 6d, orders his 4 fire control officers (one port officer, 1 starboard officer, 1 forward officer, 1 rear officer). THEY would order each gunnery officer (say 4 gunnery officers per side for an ISD), those officers order the gun well officers, who in turn would order each battery officer..
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would these bonuses count towards player groups that use tactics and combined fire?
or is this meant for NPCs only?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the RAW coordination limit works passably for ad hoc groups who've never worked together, but falls apart once a group gains even a modicum of training and interpersonal experience. Once a group / unit is has even a basic level of organization and hierarchy, its better to treat it as a single unit, with a single Command Difficulty based on size and experience working together. I've already done that with capital ships, and I have some ideas about how to do it with military units, but nothing really concrete enough to publish yet.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I think the RAW coordination limit works passably for ad hoc groups who've never worked together, but falls apart once a group gains even a modicum of training and interpersonal experience. Once a group / unit is has even a basic level of organization and hierarchy, its better to treat it as a single unit, with a single Command Difficulty based on size and experience working together. I've already done that with capital ships, and I have some ideas about how to do it with military units, but nothing really concrete enough to publish yet.

While MrNexx's and garhkal's 'sub-commander hierarchies' seem to be a logical way to make the RAW work, it is certainly a lot less crunchy to handle it as you suggest.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Would these bonuses count towards player groups that use tactics and combined fire?
or is this meant for NPCs only?


F the pc's were a full on, long time associated military unit, i could see them expanding to them. Otherwise, i limit it to npcs.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had used the same logic as CRMcNeill - adding +1D every time the number of coordinators doubles, except I applied some rounding for nicer tier breaks as follows:

2: +1D
4: +2D
8: +3D
15: +4D
30: +5D
60: +6D
125: +7D
250: +8D
500: +9D
1000: +10D (max)

I saw this posting afterwards and it justified my approach. I did not opt to use the full version with the pips because the full dice bonus is quicker and cleaner. This was solely a byproduct of neurosis.

I have been using this system for several games but I am finding it is actually a bit underpowered. There have been multiple cases where my players don't want to combine actions for weapons batteries because it is not as powerful as rolling individual shots. I can't say I disagree with them after seeing the results after several games, but rolling individual shots for a batter of 10 to 20 weapons would be just plain awful.

So, I actually think I am going back tot he straight 2E version of Combined actions for the next few games to see how it goes. I think the modest additional boost under the 2E table might be enough, even though there is not consistent logical progression with that system.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I reread the full Combined Actions rules in 2E and realized I had not been using the RAW because I was not applying the bonus to hit and to cause damage, but was instead allowing the dice to be split between the two rolls per 2ER&E. I gotta say, I like blending the to versions this way because the full bonus applied to both to hit and to damage is a bit much but the paltry pip per person and max based on Command divided between to hit and to damage is too weak.
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jamz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always use progressions with nice round numbers that can be scaled easily. For increasing numbers I use:

1
3 +1D
10 +2D
then repeat
30 +3D
100 +4D
300 +5D
1000 +6D
...

Or if you want to keep it in the scale of doubling for coordination:
1
2 +1D
5 +2D
10 +3D
20 +4D
50 +5D
100 +6D
...
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you are going for the tripling to give the +1D bonus, modified for round numbers. That is certainly another option. There are several examples in the RAW that suggest the doubling approach, such as double and Quad fire linked weapons, but if tripling is what feels right to you, I cannot argue with that.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something that occurs to me on occasion is that, even without an obvious leader or hierarchy, a group can still be more effective than an individual. For instance, if your PC is being attacked 4-on-1 by a street mob or some similarly disorganized group, said group will be more effective than they would attacking on their own, but less so than a similarly sized group who're properly trained and led to act in a coordinated fashion.

At the moment, I'm thinking of using a x4 = +1D variant of the Coordination System, thusly:
    1 = +0D
    2 = +1
    3 = +2
    4-7 = +1D
    8-11 = +1D+1
    12-15 = +1D+2
    16-32 = +2D
    33-48 = +2D+1
    49-63 = +2D+2
    64-127 = +3D
    128-191 = +3D+1
    192 -255 = +3D+2
    256-511 = +4D
    512-767 = +4D+1
    768-1,023 = +4D+2
    1,024+ = +5D
This way, a GM can decide if a group of enemies is Coordinated or Uncoordinated and generate a bonus accordingly.

It's been a long week, and I don't have a lot of energy right now, but I've been wanting to get this in writing. Thoughts?

EDIT: Corrected a mathematical error in the chart, and added this rule to the main Coordination Bonus post.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
This way, a GM can decide if a group of enemies is Coordinated or Uncoordinated and generate a bonus accordingly.

That seems sensible.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I an intrigued by the idea of a lower benefit coordination bonus. I was actually using a similar house rule several months ago - the groups had an automatic combination bonus at a lower level, but if someone directly commanded the group, they would get a 2x = +1D bonus. I may go back to this...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id just double the # of folks working together, to get a bonus...
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