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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I thought they were talking about when Han, Chewie, Obi-Wan, Luke, and the droids escaped Tatooine in ANH. The ISDs did seem to be gaining on them before the jump to lightspeed, but the ISDs going all-out and Han not going all-out to evade would explain in game terms the ISDs catching up, and that is even without increasing the space speed of ISDs. |
I think the concept applies either way. The advantage the Falcon has in both scenarios is that, while it can't outrun the All-Out ISDs at its own Full Speed, it "can still outmaneuver them". Han does know a few maneuvers, after all.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I have used the rule for capital ships that if the ship is going Fast, all crew actions are at -1D and if going All-out, no other systems may be used, including shields. This reflects all the power being directed to the engines. All-out speed is very powerful and is OP if there are no consequences. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I have used the rule for capital ships that if the ship is going Fast, all crew actions are at -1D and if going All-out, no other systems may be used, including shields. This reflects all the power being directed to the engines. All-out speed is very powerful and is OP if there are no consequences. |
The consequence of All-Out is that you can't Dodge or make any Maneuver that requires a Skill Roll. That seems sufficient to me. It also nicely represents the Star Destroyer destruction derby sequence in ESB; Han couldn't outrun the one on his tail, so he lured it onto a course where it would have to either slow down to change course or hit another Star Destroyer. It works for the second chase vs. the Avenger when exiting the asteroid field; the Avenger could maintain speed and use its cannon to clear obstacles and reduce the Terrain Difficulty (although there are no rules for this, it's something I've conceptually worked on for other circumstances).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14030
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I have used the rule for capital ships that if the ship is going Fast, all crew actions are at -1D and if going All-out, no other systems may be used, including shields. This reflects all the power being directed to the engines. All-out speed is very powerful and is OP if there are no consequences. |
The consequence of All-Out is that you can't Dodge or make any Maneuver that requires a Skill Roll. That seems sufficient to me. It also nicely represents the Star Destroyer destruction derby sequence in ESB; Han couldn't outrun the one on his tail, so he lured it onto a course where it would have to either slow down to change course or hit another Star Destroyer. It works for the second chase vs. the Avenger when exiting the asteroid field; the Avenger could maintain speed and use its cannon to clear obstacles and reduce the Terrain Difficulty (although there are no rules for this, it's something I've conceptually worked on for other circumstances). |
Exactly. Run into an asteroid belt at all out, you are gonna suck hind tit, since you lost your ability to dodge the asteroids!!
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I was stating that at All-out, a ship should probably not be fully functional or it makes all-out too powerful, even with the inability to turn or dodge. I don't see how the discussion about the asteroids applies... there is no way the ISD was traveling all-out through the asteroids. It was most likely going Cautious speed. |
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess if reasonable difficulty modifiers are applied to shoot from a vehicle traveling All-out, it would not be too OP. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I guess if reasonable difficulty modifiers are applied to shoot from a vehicle traveling All-out, it would not be too OP. |
That makes sense maybe for a vehicle traveling at All-Out, with a guy manually aiming a gun out the window, but a ship's guns are all going to be electronically steered, stabilized and able to compensate for that sort of movement. In the real world, for instance, there's nothing stopping a naval warship traveling at Flank Speed (not an exact equivalent to All-Out, but certainly as fast as it can possibly go) from firing its cannon, launching missiles or aircraft and all the other things warships do.
Now, I agree that a moving target should be harder to hit, but that's what we're discussing here.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I don't see how the discussion about the asteroids applies... there is no way the ISD was traveling all-out through the asteroids. It was most likely going Cautious speed. |
While there is no rule for this, it's obvious from what we see on screen that the ISD was using its turbolasers to sweep asteroids out of its path, effectively using its guns to lower its Terrain Difficulty.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I guess if reasonable difficulty modifiers are applied to shoot from a vehicle traveling All-out, it would not be too OP. |
That makes sense maybe for a vehicle traveling at All-Out, with a guy manually aiming a gun out the window, but a ship's guns are all going to be electronically steered, stabilized and able to compensate for that sort of movement. In the real world, for instance, there's nothing stopping a naval warship traveling at Flank Speed (not an exact equivalent to All-Out, but certainly as fast as it can possibly go) from firing its cannon, launching missiles or aircraft and all the other things warships do.
Now, I agree that a moving target should be harder to hit, but that's what we're discussing here. |
I believe the electronic targeting is covered in game terms with the bonus die from Fire Control. If we apply too much real technology and science to Star Wars, shots would almost never miss. This is the domain of Star Trek, not Star Wars. I like Star Wars being an odd balance of tech, but not too advanced, otherwise it would all be very boring. The Imperials would have the ability to locate the Rebels and they would have nowhere to run or hide without Advanced technology enabling the Empire to fi d them and bring to bear nearly limitless guns.
I have to stop my players from using analagous modern day technology into the game for the same reasons - it makes the keeps of the technology way too powerful. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I have used the rule for capital ships that if the ship is going Fast, all crew actions are at -1D and if going All-out, no other systems may be used, including shields. This reflects all the power being directed to the engines. All-out speed is very powerful and is OP if there are no consequences. |
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I was stating that at All-out, a ship should probably not be fully functional or it makes all-out too powerful, even with the inability to turn or dodge. I don't see how the discussion about the asteroids applies... there is no way the ISD was traveling all-out through the asteroids. It was most likely going Cautious speed. |
It seems you are saying is that in RAW, going All-Out is not punitive enough for other non-pilot actions on the ship. It seems part of the response not clear to you is a disagreement with that. I agree with RAW's restriction about the pilot making the piloting roll not being able to do anything else that round, but I disagree that the ship can't do anything anything else, including even have shields on. IMO that's too punitive. In my power control rules, going all-out requires all of the ship's aux power, so that power is not free to be routed anywhere else any round the ship is going all-out.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I have used the rule for capital ships that if the ship is going Fast, all crew actions are at -1D and if going All-out, no other systems may be used, including shields. This reflects all the power being directed to the engines. All-out speed is very powerful and is OP if there are no consequences. |
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I was stating that at All-out, a ship should probably not be fully functional or it makes all-out too powerful, even with the inability to turn or dodge. I don't see how the discussion about the asteroids applies... there is no way the ISD was traveling all-out through the asteroids. It was most likely going Cautious speed. |
It seems you are saying is that in RAW, going All-Out is not punitive enough for other non-pilot actions on the ship. It seems part of the response not clear to you is a disagreement with that. I agree with RAW's restriction about the pilot making the piloting roll not being able to do anything else that round, but I disagree that the ship can't do anything anything else, including even have shields on. IMO that's too punitive. In my power control rules, going all-out requires all of the ship's aux power, so that power is not free to be routed anywhere else any round the ship is going all-out. |
If it sounds like I am disagreeing with myself, it is because that is what I am doing. I am just discussing it out and certainly enjoy the discussion and thoughts from others.
Based on the RAW, it says the pilot can take no other actions when piloting at all-out. For a capital ship, the pilot extends to all the crew piloting the ship, but not the gunners or other crew.
Personally, I like increasing the difficulty to hit when the gun platform is moving at a very high speed, but that is just me. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | I believe the electronic targeting is covered in game terms with the bonus die from Fire Control. If we apply too much real technology and science to Star Wars, shots would almost never miss. This is the domain of Star Trek, not Star Wars. I like Star Wars being an odd balance of tech, but not too advanced, otherwise it would all be very boring. The Imperials would have the ability to locate the Rebels and they would have nowhere to run or hide without Advanced technology enabling the Empire to fi d them and bring to bear nearly limitless guns.
I have to stop my players from using analagous modern day technology into the game for the same reasons - it makes the keeps of the technology way too powerful. |
In many ways, Star Wars space combat is an amalgamation of WW1 and WW2 in space. While single-pilot aircraft of that era often had to manually adjust their aim for relative speed, warships of the time had multiple, independent range finding and fire control systems that operated quite well regardless of how fast the ship was moving. This was because the fire control system was specifically designed to compensate for relative speed, even when moving as fast as the ship could go. And even then, ships would still routinely miss, not so much because of the capabilities of their fire control system, but because their target was moving at speed and varying its course. There were also issues with salvos scattering over long distance, but that's more an aspect of Fire Control than of speed, and I have a house rule for that, in any case.
When translated into the SWU, this suggests that any penalty for accuracy at speed is not on the shooter's end, but on the target's, that the movement decisions made by the target's commander affect how difficult a target he can make his ship.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Based on the RAW, it says the pilot can take no other actions when piloting at all-out. For a capital ship, the pilot extends to all the crew piloting the ship, but not the gunners or other crew. |
I think I see what you are referring to...
| The Author of R&E wrote: | | Characters making "all-out" movement may not do anything else in the round, including dodge or parry! |
In addition to that, you are referencing the Crew rules on R&E p.246-247 and discussed here.
In the above linked thread I had originally come to the conclusion that "Crew" was involved in all piloting and shield rolls, but in rereading the clunkily written crew rules I realize that it never was explicit and I had just came to that conclusion based on the skeleton crew rules. All it actually says is if you don't have the full crew but at least have the skeleton crew, then piloting and shield rolls are the ones that are penalized.
However, Bidlo, I can see why a GM would come to your conclusion. That's a possible intention of RAW. For a big capital ship with a lot of crew, it wouldn't seem to be a logical ship design for the same crew to handle piloting and shields though. IMO there should be separate crews dedicated to piloting actions and shield actions. ISD 1s have a crew of 36,810 according to R&E. IMO, that ship going all-out shouldn't prevent angling the shields.
Even if it does, I am sure that the intention of the clunkily written shields rules is that shield allocations are still in effect for whatever configuration they are in until moved, so shields still protect the ship in whatever arcs they were last allocated to when the shields are not being moved around.
Honestly, I don't think I have ever had a capital ship do all-out speed so this hasn't come up for me. This really reopens my original question of what do the non-roll assisters do. I'll have to think about this.
However RAW is more clear for Crew 1 ships, when there are single separate characters doing piloting and shield actions. A pilot going all-out would prevent that character only from doing any other actions, but a separate shield operator could still move shields around because they aren't involved in the piloting action.
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Inquisitor1138
Captain
Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 593
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:02 pm Post subject: Revised & Expanded Tector Star Destroyer |
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Tector Star Destroyer
Craft: Kuat Drive Yards' Tector-class Star Destroyer
Type: Star Destroyer
Scale: Capital
Length: 1,600 meters
Skill: Capital ship piloting: Star Destroyer
Crew: 36,810, gunners: 600??, skeleton: 5,000/+20
Crew Skill: Astrogation 4D, capital ship gunnery 4D+2, capital ship piloting 5D+1, capital ship shields 4D+1, sensors 4D
Passengers: 9,700 (troops)
Cargo Capacity: 36,000 metric tons
Consumables: 6 years
Cost: Not available for sale
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Hyperdrive Backup: x8
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 7
Atmosphere: 340; 975 kmh
Hull: 7D
Shields: 3D
Sensors:
--Passive: 50/1D
--5can: 100/3D
--Search.200/4D
--Focus. 6/4D+2
Weapons
__120 Turbolaser Batteries
___Fire Arc: 40 fore(front), 40 port(left), 40 starboard(right)
___Crew: 1 (20), 2 (40)
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 4D
___Space Range: 3-15/36/75
___Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150 km
___Damage: 5D
__120 Ion Cannons
___Fire Arc: 40 fore(front), 30 port(left), 30 starboard(right), 20 aft(back)
___Crew: 1(15), 2(45)
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 2D+2
___Space Range: 1-10/25/50
___Atmosphere Range: 2-20/50/100 km
___Damage: 3D
__12 Dual Heavy Turbolasers
___Fire Arc:
___Crew:
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 3D
___Space Range: 3-15/36/75
___Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150 km
___Damage: 5D
__4 Dual Heavy Ion Cannons
___Fire Arc: 1 fore/port/aft, 1 fore/starboard/aft
___Crew:
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 2D+2
___Space Range: 1-10/25/50
___Atmosphere Range: 2-20/50/100 km
___Damage: 5D Ion
__4 Quad Heavy Turbolasers
___Fire Arc:
___Crew:
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 2D
___Space Range: 1-10/25/50
___Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150 km
___Damage: 5D or 6D
__6 Triple Medium Turbolasers
___Fire Arc:
___Crew:
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 3D
___Space Range: 1-10/25/50
___Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150 km
___Damage: 5D+2 or 6D?
__8 Medium Turbolasers
___Fire Arc:
___Crew:
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 3D
___Space Range: 1-10/25/50
___Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150 km
___Damage: 3D+2
__84 Laser Cannons
___Fire Arc: 20 fore(front), 20 port(left), 20 starboard(right), 24 aft(back)
___Crew: 1
___Skill: Starship gunnery
___Scale: Starfighter
___Fire Control: 2D
___Space Range: 1-3/12/25
___Atmosphere Range: 2-6/24/50 km
___Damage: 6D
__80 Flak Cannons
___Fire Arc: 20 fore(front), 20 port(left), 20 starboard(right), 20 aft(back)
___Crew: 1
___Skill: Starship gunnery
___Scale: Starfighter
___Fire Control: 2D
___Space Range: 1-3/12/25
___Atmosphere Range: 2-6/24/50 km
___Damage: 5D
__20 Tractor Beam Projectors
___Fire Arc: 10 fore(front), 4 port(left), 4 starboard(right), 2 aft (back/rear)
___Crew: 1 (2), 4 (2), 10(6)
___Skill: Capital ship gunnery
___Scale:
___Fire Control: 4D
___Space Range: 1-5/15/30
___Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60 km
___Damage: 6D |
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