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Skill Checks and Automatic Success
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udat
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:22 am    Post subject: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

Hi everyone. I used to play SWD6 when I was a teenager some 30 years ago, and picked up the anniversary reprints a couple of weeks ago. My board game group have started playing Tatooine Manhunt and everyone is having a great time. I'm mostly using 1e rules with the Rules Upgrade (combat dodge and haste).

My first post here is about something I'm thinking about introducing into my game:

Automatic Success

One thing I noticed about the skill/difficulty system is that for even relatively easy tasks, normal humans, or even skilled humans, have a surprisingly high chance of failure.

e.g. an "Easy Task" has a difficulty of 10, and an average human has 2D, so will fail 11 times in 12. A skilled character with 4D in a skill only has about a 50% shot at succeeding in a moderately difficult task. That doesn't seem intuitively right, even if you employ the difficulty ranges from the Rules Upgrade and choose the lower end of the scale, "easy" tasks are often failed.

So I came up with the idea of automatic success. If a task is not happening in a stressful situation (e.g. combat, starship crashing, etc.) then characters with a certain level of skill automatically succeed.

1D Very Easy
2D Easy
3D Moderate
4D Difficult
5D Very difficult

So the skilled NPC with 4D in droid repair, and a droid repair shop, can succeed at difficult repairs automatically, if he's doing it in normal circumstances. It's his job, after all.

Have any of you done something similar? How did it work out?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find things to be strangely easy for some and harder for others.
All depending on attributes.

Automatic: 0
Very Easy: 1-5
Easy: 6-10
Moderate: 11-15
Difficult: 16-20

Etc Etc.

Now lets take a guy with 2D+2 in a skill compared to a guy with 3D in the skill (or attributes if rolled on defaults)

What see here is that with a roll of 1 on each die the 2d+2 guy will actually be able to succeed and even "auto succeed" on things the 3d can not.
2+2= 4 vs 3+0=3

an easy task is here 6-10

again using the 3d and the 2d+2

the 3d here will reach a higher makinum, more or less equal on average and the 2d+2 wil have an advantage on the lower rolls.

it is imo easier to roll 4 on 2D+2 needing a roll of 4 than the 3D wich need a roll of 6.

What I have noticed however is that I think most difficulties are used wrong, and that many of the book difficulties are there for mechanics and mechanics only, as in they really don't make much sense.

lets look at lightaber, you need a minimum of 10 to not injure yourself

this requires rolling above 10 every time, we never even see younglings "injure themselves" at a fairly high rate.

given that the default DEX of a human is 2D wee seee how this is close to impossible. Now add 2D to lightsaber skill to 4D

he now have to roll 2,5 (3) on his rolls as a minimum always, again very hard to pull off.

So I think the issue is with how the difficulties are used.


I have houseruled that a lightsaber has difficulty of only 5and this applies not to merely ignite the blade, after all we saw Finn fight fairly well with it, despite his non skill in the weapon, using thus his default (4D?) dexterity.

Han solo usues a lightsaber to cut open the animal in ESB

From clone wars I think we saw Jar Jar use a lightsaber for a moment...

All this and more indicate to me that a lightsaber is not difficult at all to "use" and to egnite.

But that the powerhandle will vibrate somewhat making this difficulty applay in combat.

so to me the difficulties is more about the how than the scale.


My computer tech has 4D+2 in computer programming, he needs not roll for anything less than a difficulty 6 unless he has some situational penalty, stress , under fire etc.

I also do not think that difficulty checks are approriate in many cases.

The jedi fighting with the weapon he has trained with since being a todler, meaning at least a decade......he doen't risk injuring him self 1/3-1/2 the time, he more or never does unless he really really goofs up.

So with a jedi fighting with his lightsaber I would not have a difficulty of 10 (oe was it 15?) on every attack, every time.

I would make one difficulty chack if need be and this lasts for the duration of that combat.

I also feel that the best person is not the one capable of the highest result but may fail on the easiest ones, but the one that always succeeds on the easy tasks, and that while not capable of greatness in the moment is stable and reliable and capable of high results, though much more rare and usually not as high as the so called expert.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

udat wrote:
Hi everyone. I used to play SWD6 when I was a teenager some 30 years ago, and picked up the anniversary reprints a couple of weeks ago. My board game group have started playing Tatooine Manhunt and everyone is having a great time. I'm mostly using 1e rules with the Rules Upgrade (combat dodge and haste).

My first post here is about something I'm thinking about introducing into my game

Welcome to the Pit, udat!

udat wrote:
Automatic Success

...If a task is not happening in a stressful situation (e.g. combat, starship crashing, etc.) then characters with a certain level of skill automatically succeed.

1D Very Easy
2D Easy
3D Moderate
4D Difficult
5D Very difficult

So the skilled NPC with 4D in droid repair, and a droid repair shop, can succeed at difficult repairs automatically, if he's doing it in normal circumstances. It's his job, after all.

Have any of you done something similar? How did it work out?

Some version of d20 (maybe it was D&D 3e or 3.5) had a rule that I think was called "Take 10". That rule doesn't take skill level into account. The premise was that if you just take a long enough time to complete a task, you will eventually perform it successfully.

I think adding skill level to it make sense, but I would still have an element of time too. For an automatic success, even if not in a stressful situation, the character should have to take more time than a rolled success would take. How long? In 2e (and maybe 1e too, I can't remember) there is a preparation rule that says that if you can take double the normal time for action, it adds 1D to your skill roll. For automatic success in non-stressful situations, maybe quadruple the time?

This rule would really make sense for astrogation, which most of the time would not be stressful and the character could take plenty of time. Astrogation Mishaps seem more rare in the films than the game and this could reflect that. If astrogation is a stressful situation like trying to escape from TIE fighters attacking you, then there should be a chance of mishap.

udat wrote:
One thing I noticed about the skill/difficulty system is that for even relatively easy tasks, normal humans, or even skilled humans, have a surprisingly high chance of failure.

e.g. an "Easy Task" has a difficulty of 10, and an average human has 2D, so will fail 11 times in 12. A skilled character with 4D in a skill only has about a 50% shot at succeeding in a moderately difficult task. That doesn't seem intuitively right, even if you employ the difficulty ranges from the Rules Upgrade and choose the lower end of the scale, "easy" tasks are often failed.

That is a good observation. It is clear that the game was designed with the difficulty levels being multiples of fives just for simplicity's sake so it would be easy for the GM to remember without having to refer to a chart. However, there is no correlation between ability level die codes and difficulty numbers. You do have this wacky situation where it is sometimes difficult for characters to completely "easy" tasks. The difficulty ranges help the situation but it is still off.

I redesigned the difficulty chart so there is a direct correlation between die codes and difficulty numbers. Instead of multiples of 5, the progression is based on multiples of 3.5 (the average result from a die roll), but it is mostly multiples of 7 (the average result of 2D). The trade off is that it isn't quite as easy to remember as the RAW, but I found that I only had to refer to the chart for a while before it just became second nature. So it was totally worth the slightly added complexity. As far as game balance, this equally applies to all characters so this modification doesn't upset anything.

Below is the post detailing the mod. Once there, if you scroll up you can see some more of the through process that went into it.

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=162031#162031

Although my game is based on 2e, this could easily be adopted to 1e as well. I find that the direct correlation between dice rolls and difficulty numbers makes it easier to plan challenging encounters for PCs that aren't too difficult or too easy.
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udat
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Welcome to the Pit, udat!


Thanks man Smile

Whill wrote:

Some version of d20 (maybe it was D&D 3e or 3.5) had a rule that I think was called "Take 10". That rule doesn't take skill level into account. The premise was that if you just take a long enough time to complete a task, you will eventually perform it successfully.

I think adding skill level to it make sense, but I would still have an element of time too. For an automatic success, even if not in a stressful situation, the character should have to take more time than a rolled success would take. How long? In 2e (and maybe 1e too, I can't remember) there is a preparation rule that says that if you can take double the normal time for action, it adds 1D to your skill roll. For automatic success in non-stressful situations, maybe quadruple the time?

This rule would really make sense for astrogation, which most of the time would not be stressful and the character could take plenty of time. Astrogation Mishaps seem more rare in the films than the game and this could reflect that. If astrogation is a stressful situation like trying to escape from TIE fighters attacking you, then there should be a chance of mishap.


Yeah that's a good idea. If time is a real factor then almost by definition the situation isn't stress free. You can automatically succeed in the task but it takes longer. We've used the "preparation rule" already in at least one encounter so my players are already familiar with the concept.

Whill wrote:

I redesigned the difficulty chart so there is a direct correlation between die codes and difficulty numbers. Instead of multiples of 5, the progression is based on multiples of 3.5 (the average result from a die roll), but it is mostly multiples of 7 (the average result of 2D). The trade off is that it isn't quite as easy to remember as the RAW, but I found that I only had to refer to the chart for a while before it just became second nature. So it was totally worth the slightly added complexity. As far as game balance, this equally applies to all characters so this modification doesn't upset anything.

Below is the post detailing the mod. Once there, if you scroll up you can see some more of the through process that went into it.

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=162031#162031

Although my game is based on 2e, this could easily be adopted to 1e as well. I find that the direct correlation between dice rolls and difficulty numbers makes it easier to plan challenging encounters for PCs that aren't too difficult or too easy.


That's a really interesting thread. I think I might incorporate that and the auto-success idea into my game Smile
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Some version of d20 (maybe it was D&D 3e or 3.5) had a rule that I think was called "Take 10". That rule doesn't take skill level into account. The premise was that if you just take a long enough time to complete a task, you will eventually perform it successfully.


d20 had two different "Take" rules... "Take 10" and "Take 20".

Take 10 was "You will succeed at this most of the time, anyway, and you're not under any stress, so let's just say you succeeded and move on"... as if you had rolled a 10 on the die. No great success, no likelihood of catastrophic failure, just "Yeah, you're good enough to do that."

Take 20 was "If you keep at it, long enough, eventually you'll roll a 20, so we'll say it takes you 20 times the normal amount of time but you rolled that 20." If you're dedicated to searching a room, and your skills are good enough, eventually, you'll roll a 20 and succeed. So, rather than have someone keep rolling check after check, we just say you were thorough and did it.

In d6, I'd put a "Take 10" as "Take 2"... if you're not under particular stress, and the difficulty is twice your die code or less, you can just do it, as if you rolled a 2 on all your dice... if I have a 6D in Planetary systems, I probably shouldn't have to roll to know basic information about Alderaan or Coruscant... deep info, yes, but the basics should be top of my head information.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:49 am    Post subject: Re: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

udat wrote:

1D Very Easy
2D Easy
3D Moderate
4D Difficult
5D Very difficult

So the skilled NPC with 4D in droid repair, and a droid repair shop, can succeed at difficult repairs automatically, if he's doing it in normal circumstances. It's his job, after all.


That seems reasonable and fair. Another way of working it is a failure just doubles the time or cost or whatever. Assuming you have no reason to want the PCs to fail. So perhaps repairing that droid is a difficult skill roll (20). If that 4D droid prog/repair character fails the roll then he misdiagnosed the problem, and takes twice as long and perhaps twice the actual cost to do the job. The PCs fail forward, as it is. They still succeed, but at cost.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

udat wrote:
My first post here is about something I'm thinking about introducing into my game:


Welcome to The Pit. Your first post of many more we hope!

udat wrote:
Automatic Success


I think the issue is that we all come from an ingrained mentality in roleplaying games that everything needs a roll. Let me set something clear, it doesn't. And you know what? The world does not end, characters do not become overpowerful, frogs and locusts will not plague your community.

In my games I only roll dice if:

1. Performing the skill under difficult conditions where a failed outcome could have impact on a scene.
2. If performing the skill quickly or under pressure.
3. If the person is not trained in the skill.

I assume that in downtime or between scenes, the characters are performing skills that they have adequate time, tools, help, etc, and competence in a skill to to what they want. As a GM I do take into consideration how long something will take and so on. If they do not have enough time to finish the job between scenes, it just doesn't get completed.

Again, I strongly encourage you not to get into the habit of rolling for every single use of a skill. I would also strongly suggest rolling skills when the a missed skill roll could have negative impact in a current scene or the story.

Remember, if the characters have plenty of time to perform a skill, you can give them D or pip modifiers or a static modifier.

For example, they are trying to repair some electrical burnouts on their ship between scenes, you decide they have probably a few days to a week, they have the proper tools, they are not under a time restriction, and quite honestly, the outcome has no bearing on the the direction of the story.

You could:

1. hand wave and say they are successful
2. make them roll and no matter what they roll they are successful
3. Give the a +1-2D or higher modifier or a +5 to +10 static modifier

Finally, I don't count the wild die for this sort of thing. I think of the wild die as the Force manifesting in a time of crisis.

Anyway, hope that helps.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

ThrorII wrote:

That seems reasonable and fair. Another way of working it is a failure just doubles the time or cost or whatever. Assuming you have no reason to want the PCs to fail. So perhaps repairing that droid is a difficult skill roll (20). If that 4D droid prog/repair character fails the roll then he misdiagnosed the problem, and takes twice as long and perhaps twice the actual cost to do the job. The PCs fail forward, as it is. They still succeed, but at cost.


I like this a lot - particularly for skill rolls relating to players tweaking their equipment and starship. The additional cost element is very thematic. Because they are spending skill points as well, failing seems unduly harsh, but some extra coin cost is a great compromise.
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udat
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Skill Checks and Automatic Success Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:

Welcome to The Pit. Your first post of many more we hope!

Thanks Smile
shootingwomprats wrote:

I think the issue is that we all come from an ingrained mentality in roleplaying games that everything needs a roll. Let me set something clear, it doesn't. And you know what? The world does not end, characters do not become overpowerful, frogs and locusts will not plague your community.

In my games I only roll dice if:

1. Performing the skill under difficult conditions where a failed outcome could have impact on a scene.
2. If performing the skill quickly or under pressure.
3. If the person is not trained in the skill.


Thanks for the advice. I am new to GMing (I used to play RPGs as a teenager, some 30 years ago) but this is something I am completely on board with.

I've already come to the conclusion that if the players fail a roll that means they can't progress with the story then I am really making myself a lot more work, so even when they have rolled badly and "failed" a difficulty check, usually I keep the scene moving, but there's a complication or compromise. I don't always tell them the difficulty number so that even if they roll abysmally, I can say they succeeded. I don't want to over-use this technique, but I think it lets the players feel like they did something more important if they had to roll the dice to achieve it.
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