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Thing I've missed for 30 years
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, I am the opposite. When "Yoda, the Jedi Master who trained me" was mentioned, I never once assumed that Yoda was a "great warrior".

I always got the feeling that Yoda was such a master of the Force that he would not resort to the crude nature of battling with a lightsaber.

"The Force is my ally, and a strong ally it is."

We never saw Yoda with a lightsaber showing Luke how to use it. Never once saw Luke learning to fight by spinning around like a top as Yoda did.

Thus, when I saw Yoda fight in the prequels, I was greatly disappointed, as he did not fight like an 870 year old Jedi Master. To go from hobbling around with a cane to doing flips and jumps and spinning like a top, it just came across as a sick joke.

I know many people hated it, but I thought the Force duel between Rey and Kylo Ren was an example of how Yoda would have fought against other Force users. He didn't need a lightsaber. Force block would stop your attack. Force Push would propel you forcefully back against the wall, and continue to push you to knock you out or even eliminate you. Or he would collapse a nearby wall on you. Or use telekinesis to raise a wall from the ground to impact you and knock you down or block your attack. If you did manage to land a hit, he could do what he did with the Sith lightning and simply absorb a hit. Too many and it would overwhelm him, but he would use the Force to avoid too many hits.

Luke made a wild jump of speculation, as heroes were what was on his mind. He wanted to be a hero and great warrior. Obi Wan was a hero and great warrior. Thus a Jedi Master must be a hero and great warrior. An assumption that Yoda himself put to rest. "Wars not make one great." "Judge me by my size do you? As well you should not, for the Force is my ally."
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:
"The Force is my ally, and a strong ally it is."

We never saw Yoda with a lightsaber showing Luke how to use it. Never once saw Luke learning to fight by spinning around like a top

Well first of all, that wouldn't have worked in 1980 because Yoda was a muppet. So the technical limitations of the day is the obvious real world reason that didn't happen.

In-universe, Luke left Dagobah long before his training was complete. Luke only got a crash course in being a Jedi and the Force. Yoda was not preparing Luke for lightsaber duels because Luke was far from ready to confront his father and the Sith. Remember when Luke wanted to go face Vader to save his friends and Yoda didn't want him to go? The emphasis of Luke's training before he left had been Jedi philosophy, self-confidence, and being wary of the Dark Side. Yoda had not been training him to fight Sith Lords. Even the son of the Chosen One doesn't get that in his first week of training!

Grimace wrote:
Thus, when I saw Yoda fight in the prequels, I was greatly disappointed, as he did not fight like an 870 year old Jedi Master. To go from hobbling around with a cane to doing flips and jumps and spinning like a top, it just came across as a sick joke.

See, I am the opposite. In AotC, Yoda shuffled in to face Dooku, hobbling along with his cane like you would expect of a 870 year-old Jedi Master. Then he dropped the cane, changed his stance, drew his lightsaber, and fought with a fury of an alien froglike sword master. After Yoda saved Obi-Wan and Anakin (and Dooku escaped), Yoda telekinetically called his cane back to his hand, and hunched back into his pained old man walk. The CG character performance was played a lot like Christopher Reeves' Clark Kent/Superman where there is a change in posture and everything. It was obvious that Yoda was augmenting his physical ability with the Force to fight based on his experience instead of the limits of his age. But he doesn't use the Force frivolously, so when it is no longer needed, he is the little old guy with the cane again. It's not a sick joke. It's genius.

I was greatly disappointed that it was over so quick (Lucas edited all three duels down to reduce film runtime). Seeing prequel-Yoda in action does not create any discontinuities with TESB because Yoda had no cause to do that on Dagobah. In AotC he was trying to stop the war before it started (and failed due to being unwilling to sacrifice Obi-Wan and Anakin to do so). The only Sith Lords to face on Dagobah where in Luke's mind. For me the harder one to see is decrepit Christopher Lee fighting like he seems to do (really a stunt man with a CGed face). To suspend disbelief, I have to keep thinking that Dooku is Dracula, a supernatural creature.

You probably liked Yoda v Palpatine in RotS more since it was mostly a Force battle.

Grimace wrote:
Luke made a wild jump of speculation, as heroes were what was on his mind. He wanted to be a hero and great warrior. Obi Wan was a hero and great warrior. Thus a Jedi Master must be a hero and great warrior. An assumption that Yoda himself put to rest. "Wars not make one great." "Judge me by my size do you? As well you should not, for the Force is my ally."

I never interpreted Yoda's statement to mean that he had never been a warrior. It meant exactly what it says, wars do not make one great. Yoda is not great because of his warrior abilities. Yoda is great because of his power over the Force without giving in to the temptation of the Dark Side. Yoda said exactly what Luke needed to hear. Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things. Luke was reckless, impatient, and angry. Yoda saying wars not make one great is part of why Luke threw away his ligthsaber in RotJ.

So many SW fans of our generation have a problem with the prequels exactly because of this personal interpretation/expectation issue. You got the impression from the first two sequels that Yoda was never a warrior, so of course you could not accept seeing him as a warrior in the clone war. It makes sense, but you must unlearn what you have learned. Wink Just kidding of course.

And obviously, Lucas envisioned Yoda as a great warrior so I'm happy that I never pigeon holed Yoda as never using a lightsaber. Lucas couldn't show that in the CT, so the plot did not require him to. Yoda only ever interacts with Luke, Artoo and Obi-Wan's ghost. No villains. By the time the Clone Wars were portrayed in film, the technology was finally available to show Yoda being a great warrior, which was part of the tragedy. By merely fighting the war, the Jedi lost the war. The PT only makes Yoda's statement to Luke about wars even more dramatic than it had been in the original sequels. Yoda was a great warrior, and he still failed to stop the Emperor.
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Aelwe
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never interpreted Yoda's words as him not being a warrior, but still, I didn't like him using a lightsaber. I always pictured him (and the Emperor, for that matter) as force users so powerful that had other ways to fight than to use a physical weapon -and the Emperor using force lightning in RotJ more or less cemented that idea for me-. I don't hate Yoda and Sidious both using lightsabers in the prequels, but it just makes them a little less interesting to me. Like all force users fit in a particular archetype, they look less varied and unique.
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Last edited by Aelwe on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aelwe wrote:
I never interpreted Yoda's words as him not being a warrior, but still, I didn't like him using a lightsaber. I always pictured him (and the Emperor, for that matter) as force users so powerful that had other ways to fight than to use a physical weapon -and the Emperor using force lightning in RotJ more or less cemented that idea for me-. I don't hate Yoda and Sidious both using lightsabers in the prequels, but it just makes them a lit less interesting to me. Like all force users fit in a particular archetype, they look less varied and unique.


Exactly! And I never said Yoda wasn't a warrior, nor great. But I don't think every warrior would need or desire to use a lightsaber.
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RyanDarkstar
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


I had incorrectly assumed my Yoda action figure had a lightsaber and wasn't surprised when he drew one in Attack of the Clones. Now I see the "lightsaber" is actually the lamp he stole from Luke during they're first encounter.

There is a deleted scene where Yoda throws out a cylinder during Luke's physical training and chastises the young wannabe-Jedi for missing -- a Jedi would have been able to cut it into seven pieces. In the Marvel Comics adaptation of The Empire Strikes Back, this is shown, as well as Yoda using training remotes. It's not much of a stretch to believe he could have dueled a little with Luke, as the comic Yoda seemed like a Zen Master who was okay with technology, but of course nothing like that was shown on-screen back in 1980.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanDarkstar wrote:

I had incorrectly assumed my Yoda action figure had a lightsaber and wasn't surprised when he drew one in Attack of the Clones. Now I see the "lightsaber" is actually the lamp he stole from Luke during they're first encounter.

Ryan, seeing this brings warm feelings to my heart. A blast of nostalgia. I loved that figure with his orange pet snake. The only playset I had was the Dagobah playset.

RyanDarkstar wrote:
There is a deleted scene where Yoda throws out a cylinder during Luke's physical training and chastises the young wannabe-Jedi for missing -- a Jedi would have been able to cut it into seven pieces. In the Marvel Comics adaptation of The Empire Strikes Back, this is shown, as well as Yoda using training remotes. It's not much of a stretch to believe he could have dueled a little with Luke, as the comic Yoda seemed like a Zen Master who was okay with technology, but of course nothing like that was shown on-screen back in 1980.

I had forgotten about TESB delete scenes with lightsaber training.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yoda's Test (deleted scene)
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