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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:04 pm Post subject: Minimum Skill Level Required? |
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It has come up in a couple different topics that, because of the way the Maneuverability + Mechanical rule is set up, certain high performance ships are so pilot friendly that even a character with a minimal Mech attribute could hop into a cockpit and have a reasonable chance of succeeding at Piloting.
This is both completely ridiculous and perfectly acceptable under the RAW.
If this were to come up in a campaign, I would think that a large share of the blame would fall on the GM, as it is perfectly within the GM's power to look a rule's lawyer in the eye and say "Just because the RAW says your Ewok with his 1D+1 Mechanical can climb into the seat of an A-Wing and know enough to fly it does not mean I am going to allow it."
That being said, I always prefer it when I have a rule to fall back on. In this case, I would suggest requiring a minimum training level. For starfighters, it could be as simple as requiring a minimum 4D in either the Piloting skill or the Mechanical Attribute to be able to fly the ship. There are likely other skills to which this could be applied, as well.
Thoughts? _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Ankhanu Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 3089 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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The beauty of D6 is that a rule isn't required... the GM can impose all kinds of modifiers to the difficulty to make things work the way the story needs. That said, I do recognize the comfort of a black and white rule.
I think that sort of cap makes sense, to a degree. I see no reason why your 1D+1 Ewok couldn't attempt to fly that A-Wing... but I also see no reason why it shouldn't crash within seconds
Minimum levels of training do make sense, though having a flat 4D seems a little high to me. I know 4D isn't much for a character, but don't forget what die codes represent in terms of training (see the chart in the main rulebook). 4D would make sense for certain swoops and arcane starfighters, but seems somewhat high for many, many other vehicles. The minimum should be based on how user friendly the vessel is.
I mean, look at the X-Wing versus the B-Wing or TIE Interceptor. Fluff wise, the X-Wing is a much easier ship to fly than the other two; if you have experience with a T-16, a common speeder, you already know the controls. This is somewhat reflected in the manoeuvreability codes, with the X at 3D and the B at 1D+1... but the TIE is comparable to the X-Wing at 3D+2. It would make some sense that the X-Wing might require a minimum of 3D, while the B-Wing and TIE Interceptor might require 4D, or maybe more (particularly for the B-Wing).
I don't think not meeting the minimum should mean that a player couldn't attempt to pilot the ships, but the attempt should come with a negative modifier to the attempt. Again, how big that modifier is should maybe be related to the ship, rather than a flat number. Failing to meet the minimum skill to pilot a Skipray might impose a higher penalty than failing to meet the minimum for a Y-Wing, for example. _________________ Hotaru no Hishou; a messageboard about games, friends and nothing at all.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Ankhanu wrote: | Minimum levels of training do make sense, though having a flat 4D seems a little high to me. |
Quote: | The minimum should be based on how user friendly the vessel is. |
I was thinking 4D would be the minimum skill requirement for high performance fighters or swoops. Most vehicles would have a lower minimum, and some extremely sophisticated ones might actually be higher.
Quote: | Fluff wise, the X-Wing is a much easier ship to fly than the other two; if you have experience with a T-16, a common speeder, you already know the controls. |
This is something else that gets glossed over. Even highly trained pilots still require training time with a new type in order to be able to fully master it. The X-Wing / T-16 fluff was likely added for just this reason; if he hadn't had the experience with the T-16, Luke would've been as befuddled in that cockpit as Anakin was in the cockpit of the N-1 at Naboo, with no idea where anything was or what switches he needed to hit. If we were to take the realism of it that far, there would be at least a minimum requirement of 1D in the Skill Specialization for that type, representing that the pilot had sat in the cockpit and had enough experience to know his joystick from his... other joystick.
Quote: | I don't think not meeting the minimum should mean that a player couldn't attempt to pilot the ships, but the attempt should come with a negative modifier to the attempt.. |
How about "every Wild Dice failure automatically causes a humorous mishap"? _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Ankhanu Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 3089 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:56 am Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: | How about "every Wild Dice failure automatically causes a humorous mishap"? |
I like it _________________ Hotaru no Hishou; a messageboard about games, friends and nothing at all.
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well, we could cap the maneuverability dice to the pilot's die code. That would solve the Ewok in an A-Wing problem , without requiring a min. skill level. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | Well, we could cap the maneuverability dice to the pilot's die code. That would solve the Ewok in an A-Wing problem , without requiring a min. skill level. |
That would work. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14201 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | Well, we could cap the maneuverability dice to the pilot's die code. That would solve the Ewok in an A-Wing problem , without requiring a min. skill level. |
That's what i was going to suggest.. Similar to how in ADND 2e Combat and Tactics, you can't add more to your damage from high Str/Mastery/magic than the weapon's base damage. So in the Ewok's example he could only add 1d+1 from Maneuvering to his Mech roll. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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The funny thing is, high maneuverability is actually bad for low skill. Most trainers are designed to be more forgiving and less maneuverable that the actual combat vehicle.
I'd suspect that an Ewok with 1D+1 MEC would probably oversteer an A-wing and try to snap the nose around too quickly for his own good. In my last campaign I had some of new players, and they would typically wait too long to make their turns and then try to do 90+ degree turns at the last second. In one battle they came very close to kissing the sides of a bulk freighter at least 4 times.
I could see allowing someone to keep all the maneuverability but applying the overage to any mishap roll, too. But, hey, this is Star Wars, where a cutting edge, next generation starfighter has the controls and handling of a civilian airspeeder. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I want to keep the "amusing mishap" effect, too. I mean, look at the Ewok who stole the speeder bike on Endor. He put the bike into a spin at one point, and then at another he almost fell off. I picture an Ewok in the cockpit of an unfamiliar starfighter messing with switches, and suddenly the landing gear retracts or the repulsorlifts engage and slowly start spinning the ship in an uncontrolled circle while drifting around the hangar bay. Possibilities are endless. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:54 am Post subject: |
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It might also work to give starfighters an increased Base Difficulty to fly them, maybe something based on Speed and Maneuverability, representing how touchy high performance craft can be. Pilots with high skill levels won't be overly bothered by it, but low-end pilots or non-pilots will be far more likely to fail at it... _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bobmalooga Commander
Joined: 13 Sep 2010 Posts: 367 Location: The south...
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:48 am Post subject: |
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I can understand why this conversation is happening, but it just seems to me that simpler way to do this would be if the character doesn't have the skill they simply can't do it by virtue of ignorance and inability to preform the necessary tasks to do said feat.
There is a difference between Starfighter piloting and Starship piloting and while planes are similar in design to one another, if I had a license to pilot a Cessna I reasonably couldn't be expected to fly an f-15.
I know that is perhaps an oversimplification of what you're going for, and I don't know any of you outside of this message board, but it seems like this would only succeed in bogging down what is supposed to be a fast-paced and action oriented game. The amusing mishap thing is a good direction to go in as it fits the tone of the movies...Especially with the Ewok ridding off on a speederbike or at least trying to... _________________ No matter where you go, there you are... |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16305 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:33 am Post subject: |
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You're right, and that's part of the reason I proposed this in the first place. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's perspective) we don't play in a realistic universe. We know from the films and EU that a character with low skill level can potentially climb into the pilot's seat of a ship he doesn't have the skill for and somehow manage to make it do what he wants it to do. Realistic? Of course not. But there it is. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14201 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Bobmalooga wrote: | I can understand why this conversation is happening, but it just seems to me that simpler way to do this would be if the character doesn't have the skill they simply can't do it by virtue of ignorance and inability to preform the necessary tasks to do said feat... |
Problem there is the RAW allows anyone even without the skill, to still try by defaulting to their attribute. But that is something i have often petitioned for. No skill no chance of rolling. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2279 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm okay with anyone being able to do just about anything. Of course there's still Advanced skills that can't be done by just anyone.
You're absolutely right that it's not realistic, but I find that it fits the space opera genre. _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10408 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Minimum Skill Level Required? |
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Bobmalooga wrote: | I can understand why this conversation is happening, but it just seems to me that simpler way to do this would be if the character doesn't have the skill they simply can't do it by virtue of ignorance and inability to preform the necessary tasks to do said feat... |
crmcneill wrote: | You're right, and that's part of the reason I proposed this in the first place. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's perspective) we don't play in a realistic universe. We know from the films and EU that a character with low skill level can potentially climb into the pilot's seat of a ship he doesn't have the skill for and somehow manage to make it do what he wants it to do. Realistic? Of course not. But there it is. |
garhkal wrote: | Problem there is the RAW allows anyone even without the skill, to still try by defaulting to their attribute. But that is something i have often petitioned for. No skill no chance of rolling. |
DougRed4 wrote: | Yeah, I'm okay with anyone being able to do just about anything. Of course there's still Advanced skills that can't be done by just anyone.
You're absolutely right that it's not realistic, but I find that it fits the space opera genre. |
Yes, we all have our own tolerance level for realism. But Star Wars is a cinematic reality where a primitive Ewok can fly a speeder bike for a while, and Luke can survive a space battle and destroy a Death Star the very first time he ever flies a starfighter (by virtue of a high Mechanical).
The whole basis of the D6 game system is that skills default to attributes. It's your game, but IMO having all skills not able to be used at all if unskilled is not really even D6 anymore. Characters in the SWU should be able to attempt to Dodge, or Run, or Climb or Jump or Brawl or use computers with defaulting to the attribute without having the skills raised above the attribute.
If you feel it is more realistic to have some or all skills have a small unskilled penalty, that is an option in D6 Space and I don't think that would break the game. I think the minimum skill option is a good option for some skills, but that is nearing the Advanced skills with prerequisite mechanic which is another option. In RAW Swoop Operation has an unskilled penalty, so I just made Swoop an Advanced skill in my game. There are several other skills that I made into Advanced skills in my game. And I really like the more drastic complication idea for a 1 on the wild die when under a minimum skill level. _________________ *
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