| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Bren wrote: |
(1) Let's say a character declares 4 actions so that he can shoot at his opponent(s) 4 times. But all the opponents are dead after his second shot. The other actions are now wasted. And if you had to make a reaction parry between your first and second shot the 2 "wasted" shots decreased your parry so you may have been hit (or had to spend CPs to avoid being hit or damaged) - so not only did those two extra actions declared not help you, they actually hurt you. |
I might give you this but the likely hood of it coming up is rare.. Plus he can use 1 of remaining actions to move away, med pack himself, or otherwise get away.
| Bren wrote: |
(2) A player chooses a number of actions that result in MAPs that exceed his skill die code, e.g. Blaster 4D, dodge 5D, climb/jump 3D the player declares he is taking 3 shots, jumping across the chasm, and making a full move to the doorway. This is 5 actions. He shoots with a -1D blaster, he jumps with a -2D jump, and any additonal reaction parries are made with a 0D dodge. I don't believe the rules tell you that you can't do this - though such a declaration would be foolish. |
\
Being he could not do that anyway (since he cannot perform an action if he has 0d in it) - the climbing AND the shooting (5 actions declared, -4d to all, so he is left with 0d blaster and 0d climbing/jumping), that is a non point.
| Bren wrote: |
(3) In a die cap system, shooting at a capital ship with a blaster pistol. Such an action has 0% chance to damage the capital ship, but nothing in the rules prevents such an action declaration. In 2E R&E you could still shoot at the capital ship, but your 4D blaster pistol is facing a soak of +12D armor and +12D shields vs the capital ship. So while the probability is > 0 it is effectively zero. So this too is essentially a wasted action. |
I'll give you that.
| Bren wrote: |
(4) Not knowing exactly what the target number is (and the RAW doesn't say that players must know exactly what the target number is) the player, after rolling a 17, chooses to spend a CP to increase his chance to hit. He rolls a 3 increasing his total to 20 and stops. In fact the PC only needed a 17 to hit. The CP is wasted. (If using the rules from Spec Forces one may need to tweak the numbers to get no effect result from spending a CP.) Similar problems occur with any roll where the player does not know the exact target after accounting for all NPC CP/FP additions. |
Being he already hit the number, why is he spending a CP? Did the DM make him?
| Bren wrote: |
(5) Increasing an attribute. According to the RAW the "the character rolls the new attribute die code the GM rolls the species max die code and if the player's roll is less than or equal to the GMs the attribute increases. If not, the attribute does not and 1/2 the CP cost is lost. |
Since it is only 'wasted; if you roll less, and the opposite of that is you bump an attribute above racial max, i do not see this as a wasted action.. more of a gamble.
| Bren wrote: |
I believe that the addtional part of the sentence is trying to tell you that using a FP to successfully call on the Dark Side to get a FP doesn't allow you to substitute the new FP the Dark Side gave you for the one you spent nor add the FP the Dark Side gave you to your total. It is expended immediately. In addition to any other benefits (i.e. a FP) that you may have spent that round. |
I am with grimace here bren.. The way the sentence is worded and structured leads to only one conclusion to me.. That the "whether you benefit or not" is in relation to the you gain the DSP whether you succeed to call or not..
| Bren wrote: | | And gramatically the "in addition" applies to the FP. |
How are you getting that?? It is right before the part where it goes on to explain that making the call, nets you a DSP whether you succeed or not.. THE part about the force point being required to get spent immediately even if already on one is later on..
| Bren wrote: | | That's only relevant to PCs. Most of this discussion is really centered on the power of NPC villains. Who also get to quad under this interpretation. And who, in I daresay most campaigns, don't run around earning their FPs, CPs, and DSPs on screen. They are given them by GM fiat. Based on the stats for Palps and Vader they are given FPs and CPs in numbers equivalent to the heroes. Despite any presumed rules difficulty in Dark Siders accumulating new FPs or CPs. Allowing them to quad then means that the 10D Dark Sider now has a 40D skill. No PC or group of PCs can stand up to that level of power. |
If one on one, i agree.. BUT even with some published stuff, i have yet to see one of the higher up dark siders be one on one... usually the whole team of PC's against him (or him and 3-4 henchmen)... So the weight of MAPS pull them down. even when quadded..
[quote=Grimace"]NPC villians? How do NPC villians get to quad their dice? Have they not fallen to the Dark Side yet? If they haven't, then yes, they get the benefit just like any PC does. The moment they fall to the dark side, THEY DON'T GET THAT BENEFIT ANYMORE. Dark Siders can only call on the Dark Side to get a Force Point. It says nowhere that the FP is in addition to anymore. The Dark Side tempts people, it doesn't give them that benefit all of the time. Make people think it's super powerful all the time, they fall to the dark side, and then it doesn't need to give them that power anymore. Instead it tries to consume them. [/quote]
Now this is the only area i disagree with Grimace on.. Nothing in his write up of the dark siders rule seems to show they do not also benefit if already on a FP (which they can have) and call the dark side as well..
| Bren wrote: | | I am curious how GM's that use quadding avoid killing off their PCs when they face a Dark Sider who calls on the Dark Side. |
I will transfer this to the survive a quad thread...
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | I might give you this but the likely hood of it coming up is rare. |
This exact example is rare. But I have frequently seen players have their action preempted by someone else's action. So their action gives them no benefit or is essentially 'wasted.'
| garhkal wrote: | | Being he could not do that anyway (since he cannot perform an action if he has 0d in it) - the climbing AND the shooting (5 actions declared, -4d to all, so he is left with 0d blaster and 0d climbing/jumping), that is a non point. |
The point is a player can choose to try too many actions and fail to have any chance to succeed at any of them. This demonstrates that the rules allow players to make foolish choices or choices that don't provide any benefit to the PC so that the action is essentially wasted.
| garhkal wrote: | | Being he already hit the number, why is he spending a CP? Did the DM make him? |
No the GM doesn't make him spend a CP. He chooses to spend one because he only knows what he rolled, he doesn't know whether or not he actually hits the target. First, he doesn't know what the actual target number is (though he may know it is at least a difficult shot) and second whether he actually hits depends on how high the opponent's reaction dodge/parry is - and that roll is unknown to the shooter because it made after or simultaneou to his attack roll. So he chooses to spend a CP "just in case" the opponent rolls a parry higher than the shooter's current total.
At a minimum we now agree that there are some choices (though not all the examples I listed) that characters make that are essentially wasted actions. Which answers the question you posed and shows that my interpretation that using a FP to Call on the Dark Side would not be the only instance of the rules allowing characters to choose foolish or wasted actions.
I look forward to seeing how you use quadding for villains without killing PCs in droves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I've already stated that if they're a Dark Sider (meaning they've fallen to the Dark Side) they don't get the added benefit. I think I've stated enough times that the quadding I use only happens a maximum of 5 times for a player, and that's BEFORE they've become a dark sider.
I also don't let players play dark siders. They become NPCs. Since dark siders (who are NPCs, not players) don't get the benefit of being tempted they don't EVER experience the quadding in my games.
In the case where an NPC isn't a dark sider YET, then they would get the quad bonus until the moment the NPC turned to the dark side. Once that happened, no additional bonus. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Grimace wrote: | | Well, I've already stated that if they're a Dark Sider (meaning they've fallen to the Dark Side) they don't get the added benefit. |
Is there something in the RAW that states that a darsider (i.e. NPC consumed by ther dark side) can't call of the dark side? Or is that a house rule? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | This exact example is rare. But I have frequently seen players have their action preempted by someone else's action. So their action gives them no benefit or is essentially 'wasted.' |
Maybe its who we have played with then.. Even in combat where say i had 3 shots called for, and 2 of the targets i wanted to shoot at were already downed before my turn, i still had other targets to go to.
| Bren wrote: | | No the GM doesn't make him spend a CP. He chooses to spend one because he only knows what he rolled, he doesn't know whether or not he actually hits the target. First, he doesn't know what the actual target number is (though he may know it is at least a difficult shot) and second whether he actually hits depends on how high the opponent's reaction dodge/parry is - and that roll is unknown to the shooter because it made after or simultaneou to his attack roll. So he chooses to spend a CP "just in case" the opponent rolls a parry higher than the shooter's current total. |
I call BS on this.. Since his roll is already hitting the target number the DM should say so.. Not hold off on that info to see if he can force the pc to spend undeeded cps..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | I call BS on this.. Since his roll is already hitting the target number the DM should say so.. Not hold off on that info to see if he can force the pc to spend undeeded cps.. |
So how do you handle shots with reaction dodges. If you tell the shooter what the target rolled for his dodge then the target is screwed. If you tell the target what the shooter rolled then the shooter is screwed. Either somebody is screwed or it happens simultaneously - in which case the shooter doesn't know the real target number. Unless you priviledge the PCs and give them OOC knowledge than in all of those cases, some PC (either shooter or defender) is having to guess at how many CPs he needs to spend. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: |
I call BS on this.. Since his roll is already hitting the target number the DM should say so.. Not hold off on that info to see if he can force the pc to spend undeeded cps.. |
Not everyone tells people the number they need before the roll is made like you do garhkal. If a player asks, I'll give them the difficulty level, but I won't tell them the exact number EVER. And I don't give them the result of their action until they announce the final number to me that they rolled. They can't roll the dice, tell me 16, have me start saying they failed and then decide to use a Character Point. They have to roll the dice, decide if the total is high enough, decide if they want to use a CP to bump their total up, and then announce their total to me. I don't count their totals up as they roll them and stop them the moment they hit the difficulty by telling them they made it.
So it might be BS for you, but it's not BS for other people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | Grimace wrote: | | Well, I've already stated that if they're a Dark Sider (meaning they've fallen to the Dark Side) they don't get the added benefit. |
Is there something in the RAW that states that a darsider (i.e. NPC consumed by ther dark side) can't call of the dark side? Or is that a house rule? |
No, nothing like that.
I'm going to quote out of 2nd Edition, as that's what I have handy:
Page 56 - Calling Upon the Dark Side
"To those who have not been consumed by the Dark Side, it is very tempting. Characters, Force-sensitive or not, may call upon the Dark Side, especially when angry, aggressive, desperate, or otherwise out of balance.
...
When a character successfully calls upon the Dark Side, he gets a Force Point which must be spent immediately -- this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round. The character must declar this action during the normal declaration process.
This option is not open to characers who refuse to believe in the existence of the Force, including most Imperial troops and officers."
So I say that when a person isn't a dark sider yet (that is, one who has fallen to the dark side) they can call on the dark side of the Force to get a bonus FP to spent immediately. Note that this particular reading says it must be spent immediately and can be used in addition to other Force Points used. So this gives those not fallen the short lived ability to get an impressive boost from the Dark Side.
Now I'll quote from the Star Wars Gamemaster Screen - Revised
Page 64 under Dark Side Characters:
"Calling Upon the Dark Side. Dark Side characters may call upon the dark side to get Force Points.
The control or Perception difficulty is Easy; add two difficulty levels if the action will not bring pain or harm to other beings. Increase the difficulty by one level for each additional time in an adventure."
This, to me, indicates that once you BECOME a dark sider, you don't get the added benefit like you did when you hadn't fallen. Notice that it doesn't state that the Force Point gained by a dark sider has to be used immediately and it doesn't say that it's in addition to any other Force Points used. So a dark sides can certainly call on the dark side to get Force Points, it's just the dark side doesn't provide the same benefit as it did when they were being tempted by it.
That is my reasoning for how I run it in my games. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We seem to have become sidetracked by the can you quad up issue, perhaps that should be a different thread so we can debate when the MAPs come out of the equation here.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When the MAPs come out is after doubling. That question was answered.
Granted, it wasn't in a Star Wars booklet, but it was in the D6 System Book, which is the D6 system. So take it as you want if you don't consider that official enough. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Grimace wrote: |
....This, to me, indicates that once you BECOME a dark sider, you don't get the added benefit like you did when you hadn't fallen. Notice that it doesn't state that the Force Point gained by a dark sider has to be used immediately and it doesn't say that it's in addition to any other Force Points used. So a dark sides can certainly call on the dark side to get Force Points, it's just the dark side doesn't provide the same benefit as it did when they were being tempted by it.
That is my reasoning for how I run it in my games. |
Sorry to trim your quotes. I just ewanted to keep the reply short.
I checked the the R&E book (I'll try 2E later) and it does speciofically state that those who are consumed by the Dark Side may indeed call on the Dark Side to get Force Points. It is on page 153, quoted below. I makred the revelant passage in bold.
| Star Wars 2R&E wrote: |
Playing Dark Side Characters. It is strongly suggested
that player characters seduced by the dark side become
gamemaster characters, to be used as a continuing villain.
(The player must create a new character.)
Rules. Characters who have turned to the dark side must
use the following rules.
• A character consumed by the dark side retains all Force
Points and Character Points.
• Force Points. A dark side character only receives Force
Points when spending Force Points while committing evil atthe dramatically appropriate time. The Force Point is returned
at the end of the adventure and the character gains
another.
Any other time a dark side character spends a Force
Point, it is lost, even if spent while committing evil. The dark
side requires greater and greater evil to fulfill its needs.
• Character Points. Characters consumed by the dark side no
longer receive Character Points for adventuring. Instead,
they receive one Character Point every time they receive
one Dark Side Point.
• Dark Side Points. Dark side characters receive Dark Side
Points for committing or actively bringing about evil actions.
Examples of this include when Darth Vader strangles the
Rebel soldier in the first scene of Star Wars; when Darth
Vader orders the torture of Princess Leia; and when Grand
Moff Tarkin orders the destruction of Alderaan.
• Calling Upon the Dark Side. Dark side characters may call
upon the dark side to get Force Points.
The difficulty is Easy the first time the dark side is called
upon in an adventure; add two difficulty levels if the action
will not bring pain or harm to other beings. Increase the
difficulty by one level for each additional time in an adventure
the character calls upon the dark side.
• It Demands More Than it Gives. If a character fails in an
attempt to call upon the dark side, it demands something of
her. The dark side's corrupting influence is dominating the
character.
Roll ID — the character must lose that number of Character
Points or the dark side will "take" ID from either an
attribute or Force skill (character's choice as to which
attribute or Force skill). If any attribute or skill is reduced to
OD, the character is consumed by the dark side and dies, |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Were you just explaining that you found in R&E, or did you not understand what I had posted? I'm confused.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think the confusion may be whether you were claiming that the RAW allows characters who have not turned to the Dark Side to Call on the Dark Side and use the FP to quad, but does not allow characters who have turned to Call on the Dark Side and use the FP to quad.
I thought it was clear that the rule that only Dark Siders cannot quad was a house rule that you use, not that you thought that was according to the RAW. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | So how do you handle shots with reaction dodges. If you tell the shooter what the target rolled for his dodge then the target is screwed. If you tell the target what the shooter rolled then the shooter is screwed. Either somebody is screwed or it happens simultaneously - in which case the shooter doesn't know the real target number. Unless you priviledge the PCs and give them OOC knowledge than in all of those cases, some PC (either shooter or defender) is having to guess at how many CPs he needs to spend. |
| Grimace wrote: |
Not everyone tells people the number they need before the roll is made like you do garhkal. If a player asks, I'll give them the difficulty level, but I won't tell them the exact number EVER. And I don't give them the result of their action until they announce the final number to me that they rolled. |
I guess i have always been around different players/dms then, as if someone makes a roll that is (currently) succeeding, we let them know it when they finish.. so as to NOT get them to waste CP.. YES there are times we still ask "are you sure you want to leave that there" but that is mostly in NON combat situations.
| Grimace wrote: |
They can't roll the dice, tell me 16, have me start saying they failed and then decide to use a Character Point. They have to roll the dice, decide if the total is high enough, decide if they want to use a CP to bump their total up, and then announce their total to me. I don't count their totals up as they roll them and stop them the moment they hit the difficulty by telling them they made it.
So it might be BS for you, but it's not BS for other people. |
Interesting.. I guess it is because i have been so used to Convention play, where that is not really done (especially when it matters ie combat) that i see it as standard.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
garhkal - I still don't see how you are managing shooting and dodging.
How we do things.
(1) PC declares he is shooting at NPC. The range is medium, so both PC and GM know that the difficulty to hit is moderate and that the PC needs to roll between 11 and 15 to hit the NPC based on the range difficulty alone.
(2) PC makes his roll and decides whether or not he wants to add any CPs. (If the NPC is full dodging the GM would probably let the PC know that fact at this point.)
(3) While the PC is rolling, the GM simultaneously decides whether the NPC will use any CPs for his dodge and rolls the NPC’s dodge.
(4) PC declares his roll (including any CPs used). GM tells the PC whether the roll hits the target based on either the dodge total including any CPs used or the range difficulty if no dodge was attempted.
Note that since the PC does not know whether or not the NPC will or won’t choose to reaction dodge nor what any dodge total might be, the PC doesn’t know how high he needs to roll to succeed in hitting the target and so the PC doesn’t know how many CPs he might need to spend.
What are you doing differently? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
