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Jedi Skyler
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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 Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | The only one I will really comment on is the situation with the jedi stuck in the glop. First, I woul dprobably give the Jedi a Perception or Knowledge check to see if the character remembers that the Lightsaber was pointed upwards, even if the players had forgotten. Failing that, or if you do not feel that generous, then when the lightsaber is activated it would undoubtedly scissor the Jedi's arm off at the shoulder (roll damage normally). On the brightside, even though the Jedi was now disarmed, I might be nice enough at this point to say that, since the other player DID burn a force point, he was able to get one arm free, and the Jedi's severed arm, and lightsaber, are just within reach  As for the Jedi, pat him on the back, and say with as straight a face as possible, "well, there's always prothsetics." |
Kage is bringing up a very valid point here. There are times when we, as GM, have to act on character knowledge, rather than player knowledge. A Jedi's lightsaber is an extension of himself; he literally uses the Force to bind the components together when he constructs it, a process that helps him become one with his weapon. In this case I have a real hard time accepting that ANY Jedi would "forget" where his lightsaber is. Sure, the player might, but the character himself would not. Even if (or ESPECIALLY if) the weapon is stashed in a place other than the norm; this would actually cause the Jedi to be MORE aware of it, because it would be hitting him in a spot he was unaccustomed to. So I very much agree with Kage on this, and might in this case go one step further to remind the player of the orientation of the lightsaber. I personally simply think a Jedi would be in-tune enough with it that regardless of the player's memory, the character wouldn't forget it. (I realize it's a bit late, since the Jedi's been literally disarmed... but I hope it helps for the next time. With some of these players, it sounds like that's a certainty. |
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: To live or Die... |
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Sorry for coming in late on this. These are my takes on the subject.
| garhkal wrote: | OK. I am done going through the gamemaster, house rules and official rules sections. So it is now IMO time to start posting some of my own stuff.
One of the things i like to to, is post about situations that have either come up in game, or could come up, where a character (or the entire party) stand a chance at dying. And ask others, how they would handle that (those) situations...
My only request for this, is that you follow these 2 rules.
1) No dice fudging.
2) Any 'outside saves', must have a logical reason to happen (eg no mysterious stranger shows up out of no where, when the party are the only ones there besides the enemy type thing......
First one. Players in game have made their ship fully electrical, opting to remove the hydraulic back up for maneuvering thrusters on their old ship, as it was getting expensive keeping up with the repair cost on it (THEY CHOSE to remove it). Later in game, they decide to fight a quartet of imperial customs frigates modified for ship capture (ions vice turbo lasers). When they notice they are getting system after system shut down from ions, they decide to flee into an asteroid field.... The round before hitting it, the pilot opts NOT TO DOGE a combined pair of shots from all 4 opponent ships, which hits, and fully shuts their ship down (main power was one of the systems affected along with main drive, thrusters and repulsors)..
They wished to get a piloting roll to maneuver out the way of the asteroids. As gm i ruled they could not for..
a) their ship was dead in the water, even the smuggler would know IN CHARACTER there would be no chance to maneuver as nothing had power to it.
b) with them shifting their back up thrusters to electrical, they removed any chance of using the thrusters.......
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I'd say their ship shuts down, their speed dramatically reduces and the ship careens to the side. They don't get a roll to avoid, unless they can come up with something really inventive (like venting part of their atmosphere to help move the ship slightly) and if they were on course for a particular asteroid, I'd calculate at what speed they'd likely impact at, roll the dice and see if their ship just takes damage or crash lands on a larger asteroid, creating new problems. It's unlikely I'd kill them outright with an asteroid collision.
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Next: Party on a ship, 2 crew in the turrets, 1 in engineering, 1 pilot, 1 co-pilot. The last guy, mans the nav comp/sensor station. They are in hot pursuit of a fleeing pirate ship who has taken a informant prisoner. The player on the nav/comp says he is programming the sensors to link to the nav comp, so when they detect the enemies ship going into hyperspace, it will start to project a course. Then he emphatically states, the moment the Nav comp bleeps, indicating it has a course, he will pull the lever. I asked him 4 times to make exactly sure he was doing that, WITHOUT ANY CHECKS on the course. Dude spends a FP, and rolls his 6d (3d normally) in Astrogation, getting all 1's. What would you say happens.
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One of two things, depending on the feeling of the situation. Either I would have him pull the lever, and they'd be off to who knows where the computer estimated the other craft was going (and it really wasn't going there) or the computer frankly says "yeah right" and sits there looking at them waiting to jump to hyperspace, but the ship flies on normally in realspace. Basically, non-accurate numbers thrown in may just cause the computer to say "Improperly calculated hyper coordinates. Unable to activate drive due to safety protocols."
The other way gives more opportunity for roleplaying, as they eventually pop out of hyperspace, expecting to find their adversary, only to find they're in a place where the nav computer can't figure out how to get back home.
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Next: 1 Jedi gets caught in the blast of a gloop grenade. His friend tries to run by, so he does not get shot, screws up and falls hands first into the gloop. Jedi caught, says he will move his hand to his lightsaber and activate it so he can cut himself out. I explain he is stuck, like a web spell in AD&D, and so cannot reach the saber. He says to sith with it, activates TK to turn it on.. For note it is in a under armpit hidden sling/pouch pointed UP!!!
The other guy, spends a FP to double his strength from 2d+2 to 5d+1 (rounding from 4d+4), and gets all 1's on his attempt to break free form the glue...........
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I think you and I already discussed this one. Besides it being stupid to store a lightsaber facing "up" under your arm, I think the dude is going to be hurting. No dead, but hurting...and still stuck. The other guy is simply floundering in the goop, and possibly getting more stuck, but eventually will be able to try again to break free.
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Next: Ship is in hyperspace when the pc's realize the circuitry to disable the Hyperdrive (and therefore bring the ship out of hyperspace) is busted. So one kicks on his lightsaber and hacks at the Hyperdrive... What happens???? |
The ship drops out of hyperspace very jarringly, causing additional damage to the ship and maybe even giving the lightsaber fellow a good jolt of electrical current (you're arm is numb and you can't move it for...roll die....6 hours.) They're in an unknown area now, maybe months and months from any habitable system, and with no operational hyperdrive (except maybe the backup). Have fun!
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Next: Players are chasing, say a bounty hunter, who has captured one of their members. They get into space, and are slowly catching up. He then goes into an asteroid field. A little later, the players are within shooting distance, but are not hitting, so he decides to head towards one of the larger asteroids to try to get them off his tail.
AT this time, the players ship is 4 rounds away from the asteroid, and they are going flat out (so is the bounty hunter). Their first 2 rounds worth of piloting rolls are less than the target number, but not by much (say 3-4 each time), while the third roll is a complete BOMB OUT (eg all 1's on the dice). |
Okay. First couple of rolls are off slightly. Are they near asteroid, zooming over it, or just on their way there? If the latter, no ill effects except maybe not gaining on the bad guy anymore...he begins to pull away. Third roll is abysmal, but according to what you said, they don't reach the asteroid until next round. So abysmal roll simply means they get way off trajectory, making the difficulty harder for them when they actually have to maneuver over/around the asteroid, AND the bounty hunter is basically leaving them behind. That big gain they had on him...well it just got botched thanks to that roll. In fact, it was such a bad roll, they'll probably lose him when he does his next maneuver unless they pull a miraculous roll out of their *ahem*.
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Next: Players are all in a freighter/luxury yacht. Fighting against some baddies in fighters, when 3 hits later (same round) they SHOULD BE destroyed by the rolls of the die. No one is anywhere near the escape pods, and there is only 1 anyway (4 person). There are 7 in total in the ship. How would you allow some to survive. |
Depends on the situation. More than once, in combat, I've rolled such a thing and simply said..."well, there's a brilliant flash of light and your ship goes up in a ball of fiery glory. Make new characters." Sometimes a roll for destruction is just given as a destruction. Other times, realize that such a thing is taking place over the course of 5-6 seconds, and as the hits come pounding in, tearing the ship apart, some people are GOING to run to the escape pod. I'd give each person a chance, since it was three hits in the same round, meaning it wasn't something like the superlaser hitting their ship, so they might make it to the pod. Depending on where they are, I apply a difficulty number, and tell them to roll DEX. They make the roll for their difficulty number, they make it to the escape pod. They don't, they're dead. Simple as that.
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The last 2 are from modules that are in the sparks universe….
If you have not played these, I will be giving out a little info that MIGHT be ‘spoilers’, but I sense you are one to ignore that stuff..
Next. The Zurrog, capture the party, and challenge them to fight (these are a race of warriors, who value honor, commitment, skill etc). When they capture the party, they issue challenges to them (or wait for the party to issue a challenge). Part of their ‘challenge’ is they accept any challenge, that shows (to them), the skill/honor /endurance/smarts etc of a true warrior. Whether combat or otherwise…
Now if it does get to combat, they match action for action, FP/CP for FP/CP. He who makes the challenge (if combat) picks the victory conditions, whom is challenged picks the weapons or lack there of.
Now Someone in the party says they wait to be challenged, and gets one issued to the death. 3-4 rounds of combat later, they are lying at that Zurrog’s feet, incap… Other than having him break from his word, how can that pc NOT get killed?
On a linked note, lets say, 3 of the party issue (or were issued) ‘to the death’ challenges. All loose. 2 others issue their challenges and also loose. They have only 1 person left, but need 2 wins to ‘win’. Other than just giving it to them, how can they avoid their fate (and NO IT IS NOT all of them die!)
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First off, who officiates these challenges? Is there a supreme ruler, who decides close calls? Is there a council? If anything exists like that, you could save a PC from it's fate by having the council/ruling member rule that they have lost, but they are spared from death because they are "alien" and "cannot be expected to understand the full consequences of such challenges". This can be especially prudent if the person was defeated very quickly, so the ruling group/person decides it wasn't a fit contest. And personally, 3-4 rounds is a very quick challenge, IMO. In addition, I'd have ruling person deem all other "aliens" unable to be in challenges for they are so primitive as to not be worthy of such a challenge.
If you went so far as to have all them challenged and lose, chances are you made the bad guys too powerful, as no one in the group was able to handle them. My advice, either shut that group of PCs down and start over, reevaluating your GMing set up of NPCs, or figure some way to get them to save face so that they LEARN not to partake in challenges. Using that "ruling body" to do it could work.
Oh, and one other thing...what's this "CP for CP and FP for FP" bit? Since when can a player, or you, decide that they will burn a FP because the enemy did. How would a PC know that an NPC is using the Force, or vice versa? The Force is the bonus luck that should come into play every now and then. Just like Character Points are the bonus "omigod, I better do something quick" that can occur as a roll is being tallied. They should NEVER be allowed to be used in offsetting situations!
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And lastly. The party infiltrate an Imperial outpost. In it, are around 200+ troops. If the party get in, but are discovered, it takes a few rounds (I think I put it at 2 rounds for the alert to be fully sounded, and 5 for the base to be fully mobilized against them). The base commander is under orders to take no prisoners.
Say the party STAY, even against those odds. Without having the commander (or his underlings) disobey orders, how can they survive?????
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First...too rapid of a response for the "entire" base to respond. 10-12 seconds for the whole base to be alerted, and one minute for the ENTIRE base to be out gunning for the PCs? That's a tad extreme, especially for 200+ bad guys.
Second, not every bad guy is going to be gunning right to where the PCs are at, so you shouldn't have more than 50 or so guys against the PCs at any time anyway. It takes time to prepare groups and prep rally points for the troops to meet at and assess the situation. Officers will be calling for different things, and telling units here and there to do opposite things, so you're only going to have some action going on, not total assault on the PCs.
Third, bring the enemy in waves. More and more troops begin to get their bearing and more and more begin to pour fire into where the PCs are sitting. If they PCs don't get the hint, then some (if not all) deserve to die.
Fourth, the enemy DOES NOT KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW. They don't know how many they're fighting against. They don't know that there is no additional help coming for the PCs. They don't know exactly where the PCs are located, so they're not going to throw everything into one location, they're not going to send squads out to flank a position they don't know, and they're not going to know who is most skilled on the PCs team and shoot them first. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | Kage is bringing up a very valid point here. There are times when we, as GM, have to act on character knowledge, rather than player knowledge. A Jedi's lightsaber is an extension of himself; he literally uses the Force to bind the components together when he constructs it, a process that helps him become one with his weapon. In this case I have a real hard time accepting that ANY Jedi would "forget" where his lightsaber is. Sure, the player might, but the character himself would not. Even if (or ESPECIALLY if) the weapon is stashed in a place other than the norm; this would actually cause the Jedi to be MORE aware of it, because it would be hitting him in a spot he was unaccustomed to. So I very much agree with Kage on this, and might in this case go one step further to remind the player of the orientation of the lightsaber. I personally simply think a Jedi would be in-tune enough with it that regardless of the player's memory, the character wouldn't forget it. (I realize it's a bit late, since the Jedi's been literally disarmed... but I hope it helps for the next time. With some of these players, it sounds like that's a certainty. |
In that lightsaber case, i DID make mention of it to the player (IIRC, it was 5 years ago...) and he still decided to do that.
| Quote: | | I don't if the ion cannons were ground-based (I'm assuming so, since you said all the Imps had on hand was 4 squadrons, which indicates fighters, not cap ships |
nope. it was coming from the space dock and their defending platforms where the squadrons were launched from. (or as i invision it).
| Quote: | | Okay. First couple of rolls are off slightly. Are they near asteroid, zooming over it, or just on their way there? If the latter, no ill effects except maybe not gaining on the bad guy anymore...he begins to pull away. Third roll is abysmal, but according to what you said, they don't reach the asteroid until next round. So abysmal roll simply means they get way off trajectory, making the difficulty harder for them when they actually have to maneuver over/around the asteroid, AND the bounty hunter is basically leaving them behind. That big gain they had on him...well it just got botched thanks to that roll. In fact, it was such a bad roll, they'll probably lose him when he does his next maneuver unless they pull a miraculous roll out of their *ahem*. |
LOL!! 8)
| Quote: | | Depends on the situation. More than once, in combat, I've rolled such a thing and simply said..."well, there's a brilliant flash of light and your ship goes up in a ball of fiery glory. Make new characters." Sometimes a roll for destruction is just given as a destruction. Other times, realize that such a thing is taking place over the course of 5-6 seconds, and as the hits come pounding in, tearing the ship apart, some people are GOING to run to the escape pod. I'd give each person a chance, since it was three hits in the same round, meaning it wasn't something like the superlaser hitting their ship, so they might make it to the pod. Depending on where they are, I apply a difficulty number, and tell them to roll DEX. They make the roll for their difficulty number, they make it to the escape pod. They don't, they're dead. Simple as that. |
Well that specific situation (happened three times with a home group), the damage was severe (and the d6 roll on the chart was a 6 for destroyed in 1d rounds, with a 1 roll)... I gave each one a running (or dex) check to make it to the escape pod, though most were still strapped in (which imo would severly hamper their escape, possibily fatally!!!! )... Guess how many made it???
| Quote: | First off, who officiates these challenges? Is there a supreme ruler, who decides close calls? Is there a council? If anything exists like that, you could save a PC from it's fate by having the council/ruling member rule that they have lost, but they are spared from death because they are "alien" and "cannot be expected to understand the full consequences of such challenges". This can be especially prudent if the person was defeated very quickly, so the ruling group/person decides it wasn't a fit contest. And personally, 3-4 rounds is a very quick challenge, IMO. In addition, I'd have ruling person deem all other "aliens" unable to be in challenges for they are so primitive as to not be worthy of such a challenge.
If you went so far as to have all them challenged and lose, chances are you made the bad guys too powerful, as no one in the group was able to handle them. My advice, either shut that group of PCs down and start over, reevaluating your GMing set up of NPCs, or figure some way to get them to save face so that they LEARN not to partake in challenges. Using that "ruling body" to do it could work.
Oh, and one other thing...what's this "CP for CP and FP for FP" bit? Since when can a player, or you, decide that they will burn a FP because the enemy did. How would a PC know that an NPC is using the Force, or vice versa? The Force is the bonus luck that should come into play every now and then. Just like Character Points are the bonus "omigod, I better do something quick" that can occur as a roll is being tallied. They should NEVER be allowed to be used in offsetting situations! |
On your first part...
There is a 'huntsmaster' who does the briefing, in which he DOES explicitly (well imo) state the penalty for not reaching the number of victories.. Namely directing the parties attention to one of the trophy cases with skulls, hands, arms etc (basically makign them thing they are going to DIE!
As to the cp/fp thing. Many of us gms with the sparks group run it that when you spend a FP/CP, especially in combat, it is some how noticable, so the opponent can do likewise....
| Quote: | | First...too rapid of a response for the "entire" base to respond. 10-12 seconds for the whole base to be alerted, and one minute for the ENTIRE base to be out gunning for the PCs? That's a tad extreme, especially for 200+ bad guys. |
Not really. Especially with my military experience. In bahrain, we had 3 seperate barracks for the marines, numbering around 180 (173-177 iirc), and it took them 1 minute 14 seconds to ALL be out and at the ready... Stormies train harder (IMO) and are also seperated into several barracks, so it is not out of line for that many to respond in that time..
| Quote: | Second, not every bad guy is going to be gunning right to where the PCs are at, so you shouldn't have more than 50 or so guys against the PCs at any time anyway. It takes time to prepare groups and prep rally points for the troops to meet at and assess the situation. Officers will be calling for different things, and telling units here and there to do opposite things, so you're only going to have some action going on, not total assault on the PCs.
Third, bring the enemy in waves. More and more troops begin to get their bearing and more and more begin to pour fire into where the PCs are sitting. If they PCs don't get the hint, then some (if not all) deserve to die. |
I do so... Quoted from the module | Quote: | | Starting at 25 per 4 round increments. The second and subsequent teams will NOT be using Stun. Team 2 will get +2 to both their blaster and dodge, team 3 gets +1d+1, team 4 gets +2d. |
The bonuses listed are for the more senior ones..... basically send in the recruits first, then the privates, then the seargents etc...... So in the time line....
Round X they get noticed.
Round X +2 the alarm is sounded
Round X +7 (5 for the base to be readied and 2 from the alarm) they are ready to send waves.. Wave one comes at the party.
Round X +11, wave 2
Round X +15, wave 3
and so on...
| Quote: | | Fourth, the enemy DOES NOT KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW. They don't know how many they're fighting against. They don't know that there is no additional help coming for the PCs. They don't know exactly where the PCs are located, so they're not going to throw everything into one location, they're not going to send squads out to flank a position they don't know, and they're not going to know who is most skilled on the PCs team and shoot them first. |
On that first part of that, correct, they are not sending the whole lot against them, as they do NOT know if there are others. Which is why there are waves (the longer the battle goes on, the more come to the pcs, as they see there are no more rebels out there)..
As to the second part. incorrect, in part. If the imperials have intel on who landed (which if they used a recognized ship) would be easy to get, they should have the knowneldge of who is nasty...
As always grimmy. Nice yapping with ya.
To all. New one.
Party is all koed (stun grenades or something similar), and is stripped of armor/weapons etc. Then dumped into an industrial waste disposal area (read incinerator).... They wake, just as the imperial officer(s) start to let them know of their doom, then slam the door shut (there is no inside switch)....
How can they survive (and this DID happen once....)
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As to the cp/fp thing. Many of us gms with the sparks group run it that when you spend a FP/CP, especially in combat, it is some how noticable, so the opponent can do likewise.... |
Bad call. This is just wrong and is simple metagaming at its worst.
| Quote: | Not really. Especially with my military experience. In bahrain, we had 3 seperate barracks for the marines, numbering around 180 (173-177 iirc), and it took them 1 minute 14 seconds to ALL be out and at the ready... Stormies train harder (IMO) and are also seperated into several barracks, so it is not out of line for that many to respond in that time..
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Compare what a modern Marine has to gear up with vs. a stormtrooper. I highly doubt they sleep in their armor, and I doubt they can don their armor faster than a Marine can put on his kevlar. Also remember that a minute 14 is at least two rounds LONGER than what you listed. Take into account that those same Marines probably have little clue as to what their immediate objective is unless they happen to be taking fire at that point in time. So response to the firefight is NOT going to be in one minute. Also take into account the size of the compound, and that would add on more time (which I see you addressed somewhat in the delay of round taken for each increment of troops to arrive).
| Quote: | As to the second part. incorrect, in part. If the imperials have intel on who landed (which if they used a recognized ship) would be easy to get, they should have the knowneldge of who is nasty...
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And when did this particular bit of intel get discovered? Did the Imps know the people were in the area already, and who all of the people were? Had they relayed all appropriate details to each officer in charge of security and response groups prior to the attack? Had each officer in turn told each trooper who was the priority targets? If not, then they're not going to be able to tell who is more skilled. They can tell who has more firepower, and therefore who represents a greater threat, but they won't have a clue as to who is more skilled during the firefight UNLESS you are using knowledge that YOU know vs. knowledge your NPCs would know.
And now the new one:
| Quote: | Party is all koed (stun grenades or something similar), and is stripped of armor/weapons etc. Then dumped into an industrial waste disposal area (read incinerator).... They wake, just as the imperial officer(s) start to let them know of their doom, then slam the door shut (there is no inside switch)....
How can they survive (and this DID happen once....) |
Simple answer, they can't survive unless you give them something to survive with. Are there access panels in the incinerator? Are there other items in there? If not, you've essentially put your players in another situation where there is nothing for the PCs to do but die. I ask...what is the point of such a thing? Put yourself in the characters position, given they knowledge that the character knows. Don't go with what YOU, as GM knows, but what the character knows. Most likely, there is no recourse but to die because the GM didn't provide adequate methods of escape from the situation.
To further this, it sounds like you utilize this particular method a lot; "party is all incapacitated and bad guy puts characters in situation that will result in PC death with near certainty". If you can look at your own GMing and see a trend in that regards, you need to expand your repertoire of "ways a bad guy can be an antagonist to the PCs". |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And when did this particular bit of intel get discovered? Did the Imps know the people were in the area already, and who all of the people were? Had they relayed all appropriate details to each officer in charge of security and response groups prior to the attack? Had each officer in turn told each trooper who was the priority targets? If not, then they're not going to be able to tell who is more skilled. They can tell who has more firepower, and therefore who represents a greater threat, but they won't have a clue as to who is more skilled during the firefight UNLESS you are using knowledge that YOU know vs. knowledge your NPCs would know. |
I said IF they got that intel. IMO if a known rebel ship linked to specific known rebels shows up, then yes, it is possible that the intel on who is skilled at what is there for disemination...
| Quote: | | Bad call. This is just wrong and is simple metagaming at its worst. |
maybe.. Maybe.
| Quote: | | To further this, it sounds like you utilize this particular method a lot; "party is all incapacitated and bad guy puts characters in situation that will result in PC death with near certainty". If you can look at your own GMing and see a trend in that regards, you need to expand your repertoire of "ways a bad guy can be an antagonist to the PCs". |
Actually, i don't utilize it alot. Though i do ASK about it alot.... Like to hear what options there are for what to do if that happens. But as to how i handle the npc... i try to make them as lifelike and believable as possible. So imo, if the npc would do that, then that is what happens...
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Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| For the crash-in-the-atmosphere scenario, it is possible to bounce off the atmosphere. Or, should they get some manuvering ability, they could try a crash-landing. Though that would probably wreck the ship. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:50 am Post subject: |
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OK. Got a new one for ya all...
This is more of a trap that gets pulled.... Assuming A) no one is left on the ship or outside the room and B) all 5 parts of the trap got sprung...
Precept behind. Imperials have decided that group X needs to be taken out, but sending more and more against them has not work. So they look at the groups MO and notice that they always go where there are rumors of an imperial weapons facility...
So the imperials spend a while making this facility. And have placed it, in an area of space, that for some reason, cuts off people from the force (so no jedi will be able to use the force). THe central core/room is 50 meters circular with 20 feet from floor to ceiling. From the outside, it looks like a 60 meter globe. It is connected to the inner ring by 5 corridors (40 meters long, 10 feet high 15 feet wide). These have blast doors (with magnetic shielding to stop blasters), and above and below, in sensor resistant compartments is cement and water...
The inner ring is connected to the mid ring, by 6 corridors of the same dimentions. This is then connected to the outer ring by 7 corridors. The outer ring is where there are the ship docking facilities. Each ring is 30m accross, 10m high.
When the party shows up, they have to battle through robot guards, (plenty of them, but no real threat as they only have 5d blaster and a pistol for damage). But it is when they get into the inner sanctum there is a threat. THe inner sanctum harbors the traps!!
When they get there, they see the base commander (a hologram of exquisit quality), being fed a live feed from his ship (hidden in the underside of the main part), who is having this feed getting transmitted on old school, radionics, so as to not be detectable.
Once ALL the party is inside, the 'hologram' of the CO speaks, and tellls them of their doom. As soon as anyone shoots him, he activates the main computer (to which there is NO connection from inside the main room), that starts a timer...
Initially, all the blast doors (on all corridors) shut.
10 seconds later (2 rounds), there is a jamming field (50 or so diff to break through) that is set up.
10 seconds later, the lights go out.
10 seconds later, the gravity goes off, and the corridors start to dump their cement mix.
10 seconds later, air/life support goes off. So they only have the air INSIDE that room (plus any they have in space suits) to breath...
So. IF this got pulled off, how could u see a group surviving......
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:15 am Post subject: |
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First off, for the Imps to purposely build a facility with the Force-blocking qualities you describe would mean that they suspect Jedi running around. Such an event would surely be the purview of Darth Vader, or perhaps Grand Inquisitor Tremayne, which would probably greatly broaden the scope of this part of the exercise (if not the whole campaign.) Probably the only way you could really pull that part of it off would be to have the facility on Myrkrr, where the ysalamiri run free. There would be NO Force use whatsoever on the planet, and for several kilometers above as well. Since the Emperor is one to have his hands in EVERYONE'S pie, no matter how small, he'd know about such a facility, and the Force blocking quality would pique his interest keenly.
Plus, the hologram in the inner sanctum bothers me a bit. There's a discussion in another thread about uber-quality holograms and their use in traps. Most people agree that most holograms are going to be of the quality used in hypercomm transmissions- grainy at best. The power output to produce a good enough holo that'll fool the PCs ought to alert them to the fact that something's amiss.
Now, if you DO have a Jedi or two in the party, they need to be pulling that trick Qui-Gon pulled in EP I. Being weightless, they could TK themselves to the blast doors with no difficulty, then cut through or melt the doors with their lightsabers.
Or, how about the ceiling? No mention was made of the construction of the ceiling/roof of the facility. Could be that the Imps figure the PCs will concentrate on opening the door, rather than alternative methods of egress. Also, there HAS to be, somewhere, ventilation. You said yourself, | Quote: | | 10 seconds later, air/life support goes off. So they only have the air INSIDE that room (plus any they have in space suits) to breath... |
So there HAS to be a way for air to move in and out. That means a way for the characters to do the same. Even if the gravity is off, if anyone's got TK or perhaps syntherope and grapple mags, they could get to the vents and get out.
Of course, this trap also seems a bit extreme for a site that the Imperials might want to use after it's initial purpose has been served. The inner sanctum setup might appeal to some Moff or other high-ranking Imperial officer looking for a cushy detail somewhere. I'm sure there's plenty of things I haven't mentioned yet... |
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Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Imperials don't beleive in the Force, remember? Darth Vader is the only living practicioner of that ancient religion. The only person who would construct such a trap would be a Jedi-exterminator. The group must be INCREDIBLY dangerous for them to construct a trap so elaborate.
Then there are the forementioned problems with finding a no-force zone and holograms. A jedi entering a no-force zone would definitly notice his sudden loss of connection, wouldn't he?
Then the central room. For there to be no gravity, and for cement to pour in, there must be a vent for air to escape, and a pump to move the cement in. There could also be a few mainainace hatches to acsess various parts.
There's also no gaurantee that the PCs will enter the center room to talk, they may just open the door and fire. Or they might not bother entering on account that they're looking for weapons, not to capture an officer. |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Just because no Imps other than Darth Vader (and the Emperor, although that's not widely known) actually practice using the Force, does not mean that they don't believe in it. Sure, a couple of high-up Imperial snobs voiced their disdain concerning the Force. No one else gave a visible indicator that they disbelieved the Force's existence. And that's just in the movies. And don't forget that some of these Imp soldiers and officers will have been serving since the time of the Jedi, and so will most definitely believe in the Force, even if it's with Palpatine's skewed, propagandized view.
A Jedi would most assuredly notice the sudden severing of his connection to the Force, and would immediately work to find the cause and eliminate it, if possible.
As for the cement: That could theoretically be deposited into the room through a gravity drain, although the generators would have to be set up precisely to make sure the cement went into the room, but didn't interfere with the zero-G part of the trap. And whatever way you put the cement in the room, it's going to float freely until the room fills up enough for it to form together. That could wreak havoc even on the trap itself; the cement could catch on the vents leading out of the room, either then escaping the room and plugging up the vents, or solidifying on the grates themselves, which would still stop the airflow and create problems with the inflow of cement. That might even cause the pumps for the cement to explode, either damaging the characters or opening up an unexpected escape route for them. Either way, I personally think this scenario needs a bit more work, both to be believeable and to be survivable. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | First off, for the Imps to purposely build a facility with the Force-blocking qualities you describe would mean that they suspect Jedi running around. Such an event would surely be the purview of Darth Vader, or perhaps Grand Inquisitor Tremayne, which would probably greatly broaden the scope of this part of the exercise (if not the whole campaign.) Probably the only way you could really pull that part of it off would be to have the facility on Myrkrr, where the ysalamiri run free. There would be NO Force use whatsoever on the planet, and for several kilometers above as well. Since the Emperor is one to have his hands in EVERYONE'S pie, no matter how small, he'd know about such a facility, and the Force blocking quality would pique his interest keenly. |
I said they build it in an area that has properties that block it, not that they build blockign into the facility. And yes, i realise that vader/grand inquisitor tremaline would be the ones behind this... but even they do use means like this..
| Quote: | | Plus, the hologram in the inner sanctum bothers me a bit. There's a discussion in another thread about uber-quality holograms and their use in traps. Most people agree that most holograms are going to be of the quality used in hypercomm transmissions- grainy at best. The power output to produce a good enough holo that'll fool the PCs ought to alert them to the fact that something's amiss. |
Which is partly where i made that thread from. But i do remember reading in one of the novels about a holo system using multiple projectors that made it harder to see... As to the power output being detected, that imo would actually help out the illusion of the base being an active developer...
| Quote: | | Now, if you DO have a Jedi or two in the party, they need to be pulling that trick Qui-Gon pulled in EP I. Being weightless, they could TK themselves to the blast doors with no difficulty, then cut through or melt the doors with their lightsabers. |
But remember, Quigon's lightsaber stuck in it when they activated the blast doors (which i DID state they were), and that door did not burn...
[quote]Or, how about the ceiling? No mention was made of the construction of the ceiling/roof of the facility. Could be that the Imps figure the PCs will concentrate on opening the door, rather than alternative methods of egress. Also, there HAS to be, somewhere, ventilation. You said yourself, | Quote: | | 10 seconds later, air/life support goes off. So they only have the air INSIDE that room (plus any they have in space suits) to breath... |
True, but goig through the roof only gets you into the power generator area, and from there into the outside of the hull. Going down takes you into the secret hanger where the baddie had his ship, then left), and the door opens on a laser com which unless they have something to transmit laser beam freqs, they could not open...
| Quote: | So there HAS to be a way for air to move in and out. That means a way for the characters to do the same. Even if the gravity is off, if anyone's got TK or perhaps syntherope and grapple mags, they could get to the vents and get out.
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Yes, there are air vents, but too small for a man to move through, let alone do anything within. Maybe a Sillussi (those snake like dudes) might fit in, but they would still be a tight fit.. Not every airvent is large enough for people to fit in... And remember i did say they tested many possible egress points, and the vents would logically be one of them!...
| Quote: | | Of course, this trap also seems a bit extreme for a site that the Imperials might want to use after it's initial purpose has been served. The inner sanctum setup might appeal to some Moff or other high-ranking Imperial officer looking for a cushy detail somewhere. I'm sure there's plenty of things I haven't mentioned yet... |
Why extreme? They come back 2-3 days later, long enough for the air to have run out and those inside to be dead, go in with space suits on (or zero g stormie suits), clear it out, and reactivate everything...
| Quote: | | Then there are the forementioned problems with finding a no-force zone and holograms. A jedi entering a no-force zone would definitly notice his sudden loss of connection, wouldn't he? |
Yup.... he would notice it once they entered system, but the group i am looking to possibily pull this on, there have already been a few systems like this, where they feel 'disconnected'..
| Quote: | | Then the central room. For there to be no gravity, and for cement to pour in, there must be a vent for air to escape, and a pump to move the cement in. There could also be a few mainainace hatches to acsess various parts. |
The cement thing is for the hallways, not the central room, where the gravity has kicked off... AS for maintenance hatches.... those would also be in the hallways...
| Quote: | | There's also no gaurantee that the PCs will enter the center room to talk, they may just open the door and fire. Or they might not bother entering on account that they're looking for weapons, not to capture an officer. |
Yes i am well aware of that.... Freedom of choice and all.....
| Quote: | | That might even cause the pumps for the cement to explode, either damaging the characters or opening up an unexpected escape route for them. Either way, I personally think this scenario needs a bit more work, both to be believeable and to be survivable. |
Again, if the cement was being pumped into the central room, yes... As to the survivability thing... remember the imperials have set this up to be a deadly trap, nad before pulling it on the rebels, they have tested it thourally... So of course there is not going to be much survivability....
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Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| A jedi could still escape with a lightsaber. Cut through the ceiling, and possible reactivate power to life support, or cut through the floor, and either stow away on the ship (or just make a few holes in it so they can't leave either) Or cut through the laser-lock door. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps i needed to clarify... by the time the traps start kicking in, the npc is leaving... So, while he could get into the hangerbay, there would be noting there. And depending on whether the npc closed the doors or not, cutting into the space might kill everyone due to decompression...
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I said they build it in an area that has properties that block it, not that they build blockign into the facility. And yes, i realise that vader/grand inquisitor tremaline would be the ones behind this... but even they do use means like this.. |
For this, you'd probably better be real sure you work out specifically WHAT is blocking the Force. I can tell you right now that even if your Jedi characters don't have VERY strong objections or hesitations about this situation before they spring the trap, they're definitely going to have them once they have to create new characters. Better to have the specifics worked out- perhaps even have a Holo clip you can read to them about this region of space. (Here I'm assuming that these players are going to do a little research on the area they're going to... I could be jumping the gun.) Also remember that if you're going to have a Force Adept behind this trap, if they put in an appearance (which I don't think they will from what you've said so far) they're going to be as Force-blind as the PCs, and are therefore going to be highly susceptible to being killed.
| Quote: | | As to the power output being detected, that imo would actually help out the illusion of the base being an active developer... |
Granted... You'll want to make sure the Imps have actually set up a mock R&D site- complete with prototype weapons in evidence (even if they're fakes.) If the PCs go through the rings and find nothing to add to the illusion that this is a weapons research facility, they're going to at some point have earned a Perception roll or some other check to see if they can figure out that this is a trap after all.
| Quote: | | But remember, Quigon's lightsaber stuck in it when they activated the blast doors (which i DID state they were), and that door did not burn |
Actually, he began by simply cutting through the thinner doors. When the blast doors closed around his lightsaber blade, he pulled it out, looked at the doors, then plunged the blade back into the center of the blast doors, up to the hilt. He then twisted the handle back and forth. As he did, the blast doors (in addition to the ones he'd been cutting through) began to melt. Big glops of molten metal began to drop off; if the Destroyer Droids hadn't shown up, he'd have gotten through that door in not too much more time. So, anyone with lightsabers is GOING to be able to get through.
| Quote: | | True, but goig through the roof only gets you into the power generator area, and from there into the outside of the hull. Going down takes you into the secret hanger where the baddie had his ship, then left), and the door opens on a laser com which unless they have something to transmit laser beam freqs, they could not open... |
Even with this being the case, it's so highly unlikely that this area would have the life support cut off to it that it should be considered a viable means of escape. With that being the "engineering" center of the facility, it stands to reason that there ought to be controls for the whole structure in that area. So I'd say that if the PCs make it to this room, they ought to survive. They could activate life support all the way to their ship and then escape. In fact, if they DO escape, they could even set up surveillance in the area to possibly catch those responsible for laying the trap in the first place... Or at least they could go back out through the rings and collect themselves a BUTTLOAD of free blasters! Also, if the PCs make it to the secret hangar, it stands to reason (unless the baddie's ship is a TIE fighter) that the area would be at least protected by a magcon field, and would still therefore be survivable, albeit a bit frigid.
| Quote: | | Yes, there are air vents, but too small for a man to move through, let alone do anything within. Maybe a Sillussi (those snake like dudes) might fit in, but they would still be a tight fit.. Not every airvent is large enough for people to fit in... And remember i did say they tested many possible egress points, and the vents would logically be one of them!... |
Ok, I gotta give ya this one. 8)
| Quote: | Why extreme? They come back 2-3 days later, long enough for the air to have run out and those inside to be dead, go in with space suits on (or zero g stormie suits), clear it out, and reactivate everything...
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I mean I think it'd be a bit extreme to fill any or all of the hallways (especially if it's ALL of them, only to make some crew come in later and clear all that solidified crap out. I believe that perhaps someone higher up than the brains behind the trap would think that an excessive waste of material and manpower, and would either think up an alternative way to seal the PCs in there or tell the mastermind to do so. It's just my opinion, but you're asking for ways for the PCs to survive. My mind is working one step farther, looking for feasibility issues with the trap itself- issues that may , of their own accord, make survivability for the PCs a little more likely. I'm not trying to pamper them, mind you. Just trying to help you flesh out all the angles.
| Quote: | | Again, if the cement was being pumped into the central room, yes... As to the survivability thing... remember the imperials have set this up to be a deadly trap, nad before pulling it on the rebels, they have tested it thourally... So of course there is not going to be much survivability.... |
Yeah, I overlooked the cement's destination last time, although I still kinda think it's even less likely for them to fill the corridors than the central hub. It'd be even more work for them to clear out. Perhaps instead of filling the hallways, you might use a force field generator to surround the central hub area from the outside- even using the other methods (Zero G and lights out, etc.) This would still allow the Imps to use a very deadly trap, but it would also allow them to use the facility afterwards for whatever reason; it could actually be used as an R&D facility, since it will supposedly be already set up for that capacity. Or, they could use it as a fighter base, a defense platform, or any number of setups. Of course, the party could either destroy it if they survive, or get Rebel assistance in capturing and using the facility themselves.
I know you've designed this facility with slim survival chances; I'm just trying to help you make sure that the PCs actually have a chance to survive, and that they'll be able to SEE that they have a chance. If they can't even detect any such chance, they're likely to just throw their hands up in the air and start creating new characters, and I'd just as soon spare them and you that situation. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For this, you'd probably better be real sure you work out specifically WHAT is blocking the Force. I can tell you right now that even if your Jedi characters don't have VERY strong objections or hesitations about this situation before they spring the trap, they're definitely going to have them once they have to create new characters. Better to have the specifics worked out- perhaps even have a Holo clip you can read to them about this region of space. (Here I'm assuming that these players are going to do a little research on the area they're going to... I could be jumping the gun.) Also remember that if you're going to have a Force Adept behind this trap, if they put in an appearance (which I don't think they will from what you've said so far) they're going to be as Force-blind as the PCs, and are therefore going to be highly susceptible to being killed. |
A couple of the other modules that had 'force disconnection' AOE in the system, had it that the disconnection was some strange result of the blackholes nearness to a quantum crystal (when a small/young star collapses on itself, as it is not big enough to form it's own black hole... What i was looking at for the disconnecting, was not total force lacking, but maybe a higher diff or better yet, a lowering of the available dice pool of any force users, like to say 1d for each 3d possessed...
From the write up, they were the ones who put it together, not the ones on the station......   8)
Though, if they did, for some reason, show up, yes they too would suffer
| Quote: | | Actually, he began by simply cutting through the thinner doors. When the blast doors closed around his lightsaber blade, he pulled it out, looked at the doors, then plunged the blade back into the center of the blast doors, up to the hilt. He then twisted the handle back and forth. As he did, the blast doors (in addition to the ones he'd been cutting through) began to melt. Big glops of molten metal began to drop off; if the Destroyer Droids hadn't shown up, he'd have gotten through that door in not too much more time. So, anyone with lightsabers is GOING to be able to get through. |
Hmm. I will have to rewatch that, as i could have sworn that the blade got caught, and did not cut the door... Though would magnetically shielded doors resist? Like those Luke and co shot in that garbage shute?
| Quote: | | Even with this being the case, it's so highly unlikely that this area would have the life support cut off to it that it should be considered a viable means of escape. With that being the "engineering" center of the facility, it stands to reason that there ought to be controls for the whole structure in that area. So I'd say that if the PCs make it to this room, they ought to survive. They could activate life support all the way to their ship and then escape. In fact, if they DO escape, they could even set up surveillance in the area to possibly catch those responsible for laying the trap in the first place... Or at least they could go back out through the rings and collect themselves a BUTTLOAD of free blasters! Also, if the PCs make it to the secret hangar, it stands to reason (unless the baddie's ship is a TIE fighter) that the area would be at least protected by a magcon field, and would still therefore be survivable, albeit a bit frigid. |
interesting suggestion on the terminals upstairs... Have to give that some thought... though my first impression would be that would have been something they might have already had a group try, and therefore 'corrected'... And as to the hanger. It all depends on whether he got in his ship (most likely a Tiescout (LS1??) and left the doors open as to whether there would be a mag con field...
| Quote: | | Ok, I gotta give ya this one. |
Ta very much... got to take my props where i can get them... 
| Quote: | | I mean I think it'd be a bit extreme to fill any or all of the hallways (especially if it's ALL of them, only to make some crew come in later and clear all that solidified crap out. I believe that perhaps someone higher up than the brains behind the trap would think that an excessive waste of material and manpower, and would either think up an alternative way to seal the PCs in there or tell the mastermind to do so. It's just my opinion, but you're asking for ways for the PCs to survive. My mind is working one step farther, looking for feasibility issues with the trap itself- issues that may , of their own accord, make survivability for the PCs a little more likely. I'm not trying to pamper them, mind you. Just trying to help you flesh out all the angles. |
I must be having a problem with understanding what you are getting at here.... If all the hallways being filled with cement is too extreme, how's about just the ones leading from the center ring to the main chamber/....
| Quote: | | Yeah, I overlooked the cement's destination last time, although I still kinda think it's even less likely for them to fill the corridors than the central hub. It'd be even more work for them to clear out. Perhaps instead of filling the hallways, you might use a force field generator to surround the central hub area from the outside- even using the other methods (Zero G and lights out, etc.) This would still allow the Imps to use a very deadly trap, but it would also allow them to use the facility afterwards for whatever reason; it could actually be used as an R&D facility, since it will supposedly be already set up for that capacity. |
Hmm. Seems you have piequed my interest there... How's about just flooding it with water instead... with force fields at either end, holding the water in. So if they DO get the door from the sanctum opened, they have to get through the forcefield, and then swim from there to the other force field... Now thinking about that, i like it more, as from films, we know lightsabers do not work in water....
| Quote: | | I know you've designed this facility with slim survival chances; I'm just trying to help you make sure that the PCs actually have a chance to survive, and that they'll be able to SEE that they have a chance. If they can't even detect any such chance, they're likely to just throw their hands up in the air and start creating new characters, and I'd just as soon spare them and you that situation. |
Maybe that is what i am after .... MUAHAHAJAHHA...
But on the serious side, Giving them an easily 'see able' way out, kind of put kinks in the write up that the empire tried it time after time, till no one survived. Then sprung it on the rebs... But i do get you, got to leave something for them to cling to. Which is why i am asking here..
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