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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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 Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | The Sourcebook says that hyperspace can only be entered by ships traveling at faster than light speeds. Therefore, a ship must be accelerated to FTL speeds before it enters hyperspace |
Do you have a page # on that (either edition)? I've looked in the Sourcebook and I can't find that, but maybe I missed it. Thanks. |
Sure. It's in the Sourcebook, page 6 of the 1E version, under "Hyperdrives."
It says, "Powered by incredibly efficient efficient fusion generators, hyperdrive engines hurl ships into hyperspace, a dimension of space-time that can be entered only at faster-than-light speeds."
I've always taken this to be the explanation of why we see ships zip off at incredible speeds towards a horizon when a ship is seen entering hyperspace from normal space.
A lot of distance is needed between the ships starting point and the point at which the ship actually enters hyperspace. That distance is the ship accelerating to light speed before entering hyperspace.
In RO, we see a ship attempting to enter light speed, but Vader's Star Destroyer exists hyperspace and gets in its path of the Rebel vessel as it is accelerating to the hyperpace entry point.
Now, I know you, Whill. You wouldn't have asked if you hadn't already looked it up. So, I pulled out my copy of the 2E Sourcebook, and I see that the sentence has been changed!
In the 1E Sourcebook, it says, as I've quoted above: "Powered by incredibly efficient efficient fusion generators, hyperdrive engines hurl ships into hyperspace, a dimension of space-time that can be entered only at faster-than-light speeds."
In the 2E Sourcebook, the change is: "Powered by incredibly efficient efficient fusion generators, hyperdrive engines hurl ships into hyperspace, a dimension of space-time that allows faster-than-light travel."
Wow. That's an interesting and significant change, there. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | It's not like things shift all THAT fast in interstellar space. |
Right. Interstellar space is so incredible large and relatively sparsely populated that it would take a while for astogational data to go out of date. |
If my theory is correct, and updated nav data is tied to getting regular overhauls (as mentioned in Tramp Freighters), nav computer should be good for 20 jumps or so, then slowly start degrading after that. Maybe for every 10-20 jumps a ship goes over the 20-jump overhaul rule of thumb, the Difficulty for Astrogation skill rolls increases by +5, representing the slow degradation of nav data.
Now, that gives the data a 100%-accurate window of a month or so, which slowly begins to fall off after that, and that is still blindingly fast by astrographic standards. As such, the explanation has to be something other than the shifting of stellar bodies. I went with shifting radiation and gravitic levels in hyperspace; seeing as how hyperspace is a fictional concept, it's a lot easier to assign fictional aspects to it to fit the story
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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That works for me.
| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | The Sourcebook says that hyperspace can only be entered by ships traveling at faster than light speeds. Therefore, a ship must be accelerated to FTL speeds before it enters hyperspace |
Do you have a page # on that (either edition)? I've looked in the Sourcebook and I can't find that, but maybe I missed it. Thanks. |
Sure. It's in the Sourcebook, page 6 of the 1E version, under "Hyperdrives."
...
Now, I know you, Whill. You wouldn't have asked if you hadn't already looked it up. So, I pulled out my copy of the 2E Sourcebook, and I see that the sentence has been changed!
In the 1E Sourcebook, it says, as I've quoted above: "Powered by incredibly efficient efficient fusion generators, hyperdrive engines hurl ships into hyperspace, a dimension of space-time that can be entered only at faster-than-light speeds."
In the 2E Sourcebook, the change is: "Powered by incredibly efficient efficient fusion generators, hyperdrive engines hurl ships into hyperspace, a dimension of space-time that allows faster-than-light travel."
Wow. That's an interesting and significant change, there. |
Thanks. I admit I only looked in the 2e Sb because that one was handy. But I didn't expect the text to be different and I wasn't sure you even had the 2e version, so I thought I only missed the text in the 2e but you would give me the page # in the 1e Sb so I could find it there. As you may recall, I was separated from my 1e Sb for 22 years.
The obvious reason for the textual change is because the 1e sentence was erroneous. George Lucas didn't concern himself with scientific accuracy too much, but even he was aware of a very basic fact that physical objects cannot exceed (or even achieve) the speed of light in realspace, which is why interstellar travel in Star Wars was done by "traveling through hyperspace", an alternate dimension where the laws of physics are different than in realspace. Einstein proved the normal space limitations using only high school algebra and geometry so this concept is not beyond your average joe. I wrote a paper on Special Relatively for Physics class but I had read the Sb 1e long before that point and didn't remember that inaccuracy in it.
If ships could travel FTL velocities in realspace, then that would eliminate the need for hyperspace in the first place. I'm sure the sentence was corrected in the 2e Sb to simply remove the error. However it seems that other EU others were also not hip to this scientific reality and repeated the Sb 1e error, so it is not alone in being incorrect in this way. Add this to the large list of ways the EU is self-contradictory.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Physics schmisics.... 
Have any of you read recent studies that show that the speed of light (that is, "c") may not be constant? If that turns out to be true, certain basic things, like the definition of a meter (among other things) go back to the drawing board. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Have any of you read recent studies that show that the speed of light (that is, "c") may not be constant? If that turns out to be true, certain basic things, like the definition of a meter (among other things) go back to the drawing board. |
I remember reading something about that a few years ago. IIRC the study results indicated that the speed of light in a vacuum can vary somewhat but it seemed that it was more the case that it might slow down in some cases. That is interesting but that still has no impact on the problems of accelerating starships to even nearly the speed of light.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | The obvious reason for the textual change is because the 1e sentence was erroneous. |
Maybe. Maybe not.
The 1E version does seem to fit what we see on the screen.
| Quote: | | ...and I wasn't sure you even had the 2e version... |
Yep. Bought the entire game line BITD. I've sold off some things since--mostly 1E versions (back when I was playing 2E R&E)--but I still own just about all of it except the games like Battle for Hoth and Lightsaber Duel, etc.
| Quote: | | George Lucas didn't concern himself with scientific accuracy too much... |
He didn't know what a parsec was.
| Quote: | | If ships could travel FTL velocities in realspace, then that would eliminate the need for hyperspace in the first place. |
Using the 1E definition, I usually chalk it up to a function of the Hyperdrive, not the real space maneuver drives.
Something propels the ship to the point at which it travels FTL. Then, at that point, the transition is made, and it all happens very quickly.
Last edited by Wajeb Deb Kaadeb on Sun May 20, 2018 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | Have any of you read recent studies that show that the speed of light (that is, "c") may not be constant? If that turns out to be true, certain basic things, like the definition of a meter (among other things) go back to the drawing board. |
I remember reading something about that a few years ago. IIRC the study results indicated that the speed of light in a vacuum can vary somewhat but it seemed that it was more the case that it might slow down in some cases. That is interesting but that still has no impact on the problems of accelerating starships to even nearly the speed of light. |
Well, light can be bent by extreme gravity, like a black hole. I can imagine that if photons can't escape the pull of gravity that their speed is retarded. |
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Whill
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever WEG's 1E Fluff may say, their actual rules show something different. There is no rule requiring a ship jumping into or out of hyperspace to achieve a certain velocity or move a certain number of SUs at a given velocity before they jump. The jump simply happens, with no thought given to the area needed to complete the jump.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whatever WEG's 1E Fluff may say, their actual rules show something different. There is no rule requiring a ship jumping into or out of hyperspace to achieve a certain velocity or move a certain number of SUs at a given velocity before they jump. The jump simply happens, with no thought given to the area needed to complete the jump. |
As I said, I believe the bit in the 1E Sourcebook was an attempt to explain the long distance a ship travels at super-acceleration before it disappears into hyperspace.
CLICKY, CLICKY.
When those ships jump, they just don't disappear in place. They go Zoom-Zoom real freaking fast and then disappear. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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It would be more accurate to say the long apparent distance, as the possibility remains (and is supported by omission in the RAW) that it is nothing more than an optical illusion.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Well, i initially thought a week at most, so xwings and other hyperspace capable fighters could store stuff in their R2 units. but that seemed a little long.. |
Okay, but WHY? What is the reason why the accuracy of the coordinates degrades so quickly? Right now, your reasoning seems to consist of "I arbitrarily set a low window because I want to make things more difficult for PCs." |
Just cause i see the accuracy degrading, does not just mean i wish things to be difficult for pcs..
And what's YOUR thought? Should they last for months? Years? indefinitely???
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Just cause i see the accuracy degrading, does not just mean i wish things to be difficult for pcs..
And what's YOUR thought? Should they last for months? Years? indefinitely??? |
I discuss my thoughts here.
Strictly speaking, though, if the primary cause of navigation data being out of date is the shifting of stellar bodies and their attendant gravity fields on a galactic scale, then course data could easily be accurate for years, if not decades or even centuries.
Personally, though, I think that's excessive.
As such, I came up with an alternate theory about conditions in hyperspace (radiation levels and deep space gravity waves) causing course accuracy to degrade in weeks or months instead of years (mostly to justify tying regular nav updates to the hyperdrive overhaul mentioned in Tramp Freighters). From a gaming standpoint, this allows us to piggyback onto an existing rule concept.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It would be more accurate to say the long apparent distance, as the possibility remains (and is supported by omission in the RAW) that it is nothing more than an optical illusion. |
It wasn't an optical illusion when that ship started to go into hyperspace but rammed into Vader's Star Destroyer instead (Rogue One). |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I think the real thing we have to look at are the limited jump computers... the ones that are good for X number of jumps. Ships with full Nav computers can make the calculations whenever they need... their issue is how many minutes the calculations are good for, and so long as we say "more than five or six" (which we more or less have to), then they're fine.
The Rebel starfighters all have limited nav computers... A-wings and B-Wings have 2-jump limits, while Y-wings and X-wings use Astromechs, but with 10 jump limits. However, what what limit means isn't discussed.
Option A is "Programmed Patrol Route"... I can use my A-wing to Jump from Coruscant to Endor, and from Endor to Coruscant, but those are the only 2 jumps I can make until the computer is reprogrammed. If the ship is in transit, the jumps might be Endor to Coruscant and Coruscant to Sullust, but that ship would be stuck at Sullust without a reprogram... they wouldn't reverse the trip to go to Coruscant. In this case, though, you arguably do not even need to MAKE an astrogation check... it was made for you when things were programmed in. You push the button that says "Fly to Coruscant" and you jump into hyperspace.
Option B is "Depletable resource"... I start at Endor, and where do I want to go? I might go Endor to Tattooine to Hoth to Bespin to Coruscant, or I might go Endor to Dagobah to Ord Mantell to Dantooine to Nar Shaada... my Astromech can make ANY 10 jumps, not just the 10 jumps that are predetermined when I set out from Endor. After those 10 jumps, the initial data is so degraded and out of date that I have to refresh my data through the BOSS to make more. In this case, you have to make the astrogation calculations, because you're picking a new route every iteration.
I think Option A is what was intended. Using that, I would go with a standard month as the degradation time... but allow coordinates to be calculated as starting at a certain time. Why a standard month? Because that's slightly less than 10% of a standard year, which means stellar positions will have changed a bit, including relative positions and planetary positions within a system. Plus, it's easy to work with.
As I said, though, I would allow coordinates to be offset... if I know that my business on Hoth will take two months, and that there's no BoSS office in Hoth to do my astrogation updates, I might program a jump from Yavin to Hoth for now, and a jump from Hoth to Naboo for two months from now, which would take into account the changes that would be made... but would also stick me on the iceball for two months, unless I can get time on someone else's NavComputer.
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