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The Last Jedi (original spoilers thread)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1E Fuel Cell got left behind pretty much left behind as soon as they switched to 2E. The various cross-section books that show fuel tanks show them holding liquid, so this didn't just happen in a vacuum. Figuratively speaking.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought on the Hyperspace Ramming...

When a ship is in hyperspace, it's not physically present in realspace. In hyperspace, it can detect the presence of a mass in realspace via the presence of its mass shadow. So it's plausible that the inverse is also true; that a ship in hyperspace has a mass shadow in realspace.

What if what we saw on-screen in TLJ was not the result of a physical collision between two objects, but two objects colliding with each other's mass shadow; one in realspace, the other in hyperspace? It's possible that the mass shadow packs less of a punch than would an actual mass, but the speeds involved would make it almost impossible to counter, apart from a simple miss on the part of the ramming ship.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
A thought on the Hyperspace Ramming...

When a ship is in hyperspace, it's not physically present in realspace. In hyperspace, it can detect the presence of a mass in realspace via the presence of its mass shadow. So it's plausible that the inverse is also true; that a ship in hyperspace has a mass shadow in realspace.

What if what we saw on-screen in TLJ was not the result of a physical collision between two objects, but two objects colliding with each other's mass shadow; one in realspace, the other in hyperspace? It's possible that the mass shadow packs less of a punch than would an actual mass, but the speeds involved would make it almost impossible to counter, apart from a simple miss on the part of the ramming ship.


Also, we always see a sudden acceleration just before a ship seems to vanish into hyperspace.

So;
perhaps the ramming ship was within that acceleration step.

Which would imply you have to be within a certain range to make a hyperspace ram plausible.
This would also (somewhat) explain why it is less of a viable tactic ordinarily.
Since the First Order was somewhat ignoring it while it made its preparations to jump to lightspeed (because Hux thought it was just a diversion).

In an ordinary battle, that ship would be getting plastered with all available guns as soon as it started to come about and close the distance.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Also, we always see a sudden acceleration just before a ship seems to vanish into hyperspace.

So;
perhaps the ramming ship was within that acceleration step.

Timothy Zahn referred to it as pseudo-motion, that the appearance of sudden acceleration vanishing into the distance was an optical illusion, part of the visual effect of the ship jumping into lightspeed.

Quote:
Which would imply you have to be within a certain range to make a hyperspace ram plausible.

Well, you'd certainly have to have your target within sensor range to get accurate jump coordinates. Normally, hyperdrive courses are accurate enough to get you into the appropriate star system, and even a ship 60-kilometers wide is infinitesimal compared to the diameter of a star system.

Quote:
This would also (somewhat) explain why it is less of a viable tactic ordinarily.
Since the First Order was somewhat ignoring it while it made its preparations to jump to lightspeed (because Hux thought it was just a diversion).

In an ordinary battle, that ship would be getting plastered with all available guns as soon as it started to come about and close the distance.

My feeling is that it's not a viable tactics because of the scales involved. For starters, it's only useful against a target with a large cross-section (as in the Superiority, or the broad side of an Executor). Second, to pull it off, you need a similarly massive ship; not an equal in size, but at least the equivalent of 1D or more in Death Star Scale (Hull of 7D or more in Dreadnought-Scale). Finally, you'd need to roll spectacularly well on your Astrogation: Heroic+, including Scale modifiers.

Then, if you add in the possibility of a mass shadow inflicting less damage than would an actual physical impact, it helps explain why the Superiority was Severely Damaged instead of Destroyed. Mass shadow impacts might also help explain the energy effect the destroyed or disabled several Resurgent-Class ships behind the Superiority, as well.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on how you view the Black Fleet Crisis, it offers some insights into something like this. At the end of the last book - Tyrant's Test - it's revealed that one of the Yevetha's Imperial captives had previously worked on a project examining the viability of hyperspace bombardment: literally bombarding planets from hyperspace. Apparently it never worked because all of the test platforms, when launched from a vessel in hyperspace, never reappeared in realspace. They even blew one up and no debris was ever found.

And yet, there are records of planets being struck and badly damaged by impact with ships in hyperspace, so there does appear to be some cross-dimensional effect.

A reasonable explanation that takes both of these into account, IMO, is that the mass shadow of a smaller ship just doesn't pack enough mass (or whatever a mass shadow has that allows it to deliver energy in realspace) to make a measurable impact on another ship or planet. To have an appreciable effect, you need a massive, Dreadnought-scale ship. Considering that this is, effectively, a one-time use for an incredibly expensive starship (which you will never again be able to use for any purpose ever), it's an extremely wasteful tactic that is unlikely to work, and thus only used when no other options are available,
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Depending on how you view the Black Fleet Crisis, it offers some insights into something like this.


Cool set of novels, though a bit long. I loved the frigates that dangled the sensor buoys, letting them trail behind the ships.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Depending on how you view the Black Fleet Crisis, it offers some insights into something like this. At the end of the last book - Tyrant's Test - it's revealed that one of the Yevetha's Imperial captives had previously worked on a project examining the viability of hyperspace bombardment: literally bombarding planets from hyperspace. Apparently it never worked because all of the test platforms, when launched from a vessel in hyperspace, never reappeared in realspace. They even blew one up and no debris was ever found.

And yet, there are records of planets being struck and badly damaged by impact with ships in hyperspace, so there does appear to be some cross-dimensional effect.

A reasonable explanation that takes both of these into account, IMO, is that the mass shadow of a smaller ship just doesn't pack enough mass (or whatever a mass shadow has that allows it to deliver energy in realspace) to make a measurable impact on another ship or planet. To have an appreciable effect, you need a massive, Dreadnought-scale ship. Considering that this is, effectively, a one-time use for an incredibly expensive starship (which you will never again be able to use for any purpose ever), it's an extremely wasteful tactic that is unlikely to work, and thus only used when no other options are available,


Eminently logical.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Depending on how you view the Black Fleet Crisis, it offers some insights into something like this.


Cool set of novels, though a bit long. I loved the frigates that dangled the sensor buoys, letting them trail behind the ships.


I agree, it was a little off with Lando's side quest for that living ship thinggy, but still a good series of novels.

And i agree with what CRMC said, in that this was a once off tactic they used in desparation.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: TLJ Reply with quote

I LOVED it. Saw it this weekend, and I was totally blown away.

To me, the entire movie -- both inside the story of the movie, and in terms of the meta aspects of what this movie does to the franchise -- is encompassed in Yoda's one line:

"We are what they grow beyond."

I think right now there are a lot of fans out there who kind of want Star Wars as a franchise to be frozen in amber and to always play out a specific way. They're really bothered by Snoke's death, for example, because that's not how it's supposed to work. They're bothered by Luke's rejection of the Jedi and calling the Jedi out as failures, because that's now how it's supposed to work. There's basically a ton of stuff that is "supposed" to go a particular way, and this film says "Oh, you think so? >ZAP<" and chucks a lightning bolt at it.

I view that desire to keep recreating the past, to recapture the glory that was, instead of using it as merely a guide for the future upon which to improve, is what ultimately dooms franchises to the kind of awful novels we saw in the post-Zahn phase (basically up until I quit reading them after finishing the Black Fleet Crisis), and which leaves us with exactly the same overall structure for the stories as we see in TFA.

Don't get me wrong. I like TFA. But it's hidebound. It's very concerned with recreating the past in a particular way. I see that a lot in Star Wars media, where so many things seem to basically just try (and usually fail) to recreate the great bits of the series, and to otherwise ape things just on a surface level, without ever trying to really grow beyond it.

Growing beyond something also doesn't mean you completely reject the past or burn it down to nothing but ashes (the way that Rey rescuing the books suggests, in contrast to Kylo Ren's desire to destroy the galaxy so he can remake it). But it does mean being willing to break with tradition that only exists for the sake of tradition itself, and empty ceremony that has no meaning other than its own ritualistic performance. All that does is lead to stagnation or dead-end evolution where things change, but in a way that ultimately dooms the thing to wither away.


Anyway, on to specific points:

1. Who is Snoke?

Answer: Who cares? I mean, not really. I do care. But within this movie it's not important. Moreover, I don't blame Rian Johnson for not answering that question. I blame JJ Abrams for making it a question at all, thanks to his reliance on the lazy, hacky technique of the "mystery box." Especially when the box is empty anyway, or its contents are irrelevant.

2. What about Rey's parentage? Is she now really a Mary Sue?

Answer: Again, it doesn't really matter, but no, she definitely isn't. The classic Mary Sue is a character who is (A) good at everything, (B) usually because they're a form of author representation within the work, and (C) saves the day utterly without ever missing a beat. Rey? No so much. She's good at lots of stuff in ways she shouldn't be, but that's pretty much covered by her being "strong with the Force" and stronger than anyone other than Kylo Ren has ever been. But she definitely doesn't save the day. She screws up. Regularly. She needs help from others to do what she needs to do. And in some cases, it's someone else entirely who saves things.

As to her parentage...again, it just doesn't matter. In fact, I think it's far more powerful that her parents were nobodies. I think this is actually confirmed by her visit to the "dark side" pit (which, it turns out, isn't so dark after all). When she asks about her parents, all she sees is....herself. To me, the implication is that she's asking "Why am I the way I am? Who is responsible for me?" and the answer is "You are. You are responsible for yourself. You create yourself. Your parents do not define you. You are who you are because that is who you choose to be."

To my way, this is even more important a message -- echoed with the final shot of the film: anyone can be a hero. A hero is simply someone who steps up when they see the need. And anyone can do that. You don't have to be a legendary warrior, or come from an historically powerful bloodline. You can be...a stormtrooper tasked primarily with sanitation duties. You can be...a jockey in a stable. You can be...a nobody on a junk planet. You can be...a farm boy from the back end of nowhere. You can be...the sister of someone who died destroying the enemy's most powerful ship. You can be anybody. Anybody can be a hero. I think that's an incredibly important message, and it's one that resonates with me in a really, really powerful way, particularly at this moment in history when it feels like we're at a huge inflection point and there is a "changing of the guard" underway.

3. Light vs. Dark. What's up with that?

I think what we're actually seeing play out is a kind of Babylon-5-like twist on things. By that I mean that the Dark Side isn't...evil. Chaotic, maybe. And a place of certain emotions (anger, fear, hate), but those emotions themselves aren't evil. What we do with those emotions, how we behave, is what really matters.

In Babylon 5, the mystical "good guys" and "bad guys" of the story...ultimately weren't. They were more two sides of an argument, neither of which was ultimately right, and the continuation of which was causing stagnation and destruction in the galaxy. There's a terrific scene in one of the climactic episodes of one of the seasons (4, I think?) that just rebukes both sides -- the one normally seen as "evil" and the other normally seen as "good" -- and demands that they both back off and let the galaxy find its own way instead of imposing their views and forcing the galaxy to decide between them.

I see that playing out in this franchise, or at least in this film, too.

Anyway, more thoughts later.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: TLJ Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
...overall, I enjoyed the movie immensely.

Azai wrote:
I believe the execution was amazing. Though it did not feel exactly "Luke" to me... Though other than that I really, really, did enjoy the film.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Overall, I was quite impressed. There are still a lot of unanswered questions from TFA, but this has gone a ways toward restoring my faith in the TFA era.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I FREAKIN' LOVED IT!!!!

It truly is the best Star Wars movie in 37 years.

...It's a GREAT Star Wars film.

jmanski wrote:
Loved it.

nuclearwookiee wrote:
I think it goes a long way toward making up for the missed opportunity that was Ep. VII.

Ning Leihrec wrote:
The movie sucked... Epiosodes IV and V are 2 of some of the best movies ever made. The rest all suck.

Solo4114 wrote:
I LOVED it. Saw it this weekend, and I was totally blown away.

10 pages in and I just thought I would compile general overview statements about TLJ so far from those who made them. The response here has been generally favorable.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: TLJ Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
...overall, I enjoyed the movie immensely.

Azai wrote:
I believe the execution was amazing. Though it did not feel exactly "Luke" to me... Though other than that I really, really, did enjoy the film.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Overall, I was quite impressed. There are still a lot of unanswered questions from TFA, but this has gone a ways toward restoring my faith in the TFA era.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I FREAKIN' LOVED IT!!!!

It truly is the best Star Wars movie in 37 years.

...It's a GREAT Star Wars film.

jmanski wrote:
Loved it.

nuclearwookiee wrote:
I think it goes a long way toward making up for the missed opportunity that was Ep. VII.

Ning Leihrec wrote:
The movie sucked... Epiosodes IV and V are 2 of some of the best movies ever made. The rest all suck.

Solo4114 wrote:
I LOVED it. Saw it this weekend, and I was totally blown away.

10 pages in and I just thought I would compile general overview statements about TLJ so far from those who made them. The response here has been generally favorable.


Add me to the "Highly Favorable" box.
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griff
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The moment that made the movie good for me was after rey's experience in the cave and she is confiding she soul (to whom I thought was luke) to have the reveal to be ren. And then to have ren kill snoke I truly did not know if rey would join him or not. Great suspense.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Rey is a clone. If Luke met his father in the Dark Side Cave, and Rey met herself, does that mean that Rey's parent is... Rey? As in, whoever the original tissue donor is who contributed Rey's genetic material?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And despite my generally favorable first impression, I have since changed my mind. It wasn't awful, but it was shoddily done in multiple respects.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that part with Poe holding for Hux was quite funny, and it reinforced Poe's humor from TFA: "Who talks first?"
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