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The Last Jedi (original spoilers thread)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The intention of the Gungan battle was only to draw the main droid army out of the city so the rest of the characters could get in. The tactical purpose of the battle as designed was a 100% success, and Jar Jar's bumblings actually resulted in taking out several droids and hovertanks along the way. And the audience got to enjoy slapstick comedy. It was win-win all the way around!

8)

That's my point! The Gungan's defeat still contributed to the overall success of the plan. The only real accomplishment of the Poe/Finn/Rose side-plan was to burn up screen time.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Jar Jar's bumblings actually resulted in taking out several droids and hovertanks along the way. And the audience got to enjoy slapstick comedy. It was win-win all the way around!

That's my point! The Gungan's defeat still contributed to the overall success of the plan. The only real accomplishment of the Poe/Finn/Rose side-plan was to burn up screen time.

The Dark Knight was a cinematic masterpiece. Every single scene advanced the plot, and the movie was perfectly edited resulting in perfect pacing for that advancing plot. I'm an action-adventure movie fan in general. Most action movies I watch do not have the cinematic qualities of TDK, not even close. Most of them are action vehicles, so the main purpose of the plot is just to segue from one action sequence to the next, with a modicum of drama sprinkled in here and there. I can enjoy some of these movies for what they are.

A good Star Wars example is Attack of the Clones. It is a overall a weak story, obviously mainly there to connect A to C. In AotC Anakin's story arc is regulated to the side story (which includes the atrocious love story), while Obi-Wan has to carry the primary assassination mystery plot. But what AotC helps prove is that what Lucas lacks in directing human performances, he makes up for in directing action sequences. He even added the fantastic droid factory sequence in post-production and then edited the climactic lightsaber duels with Count Dooku down for total runtime, which really hurts the climax and puts AotC down at the bottom of my SW film rankings. But AotC is very enjoyable for some scenes anyway.

I derived some enjoyment from watching the Poe/Finn/Rose plan of TLJ along the way, so it wasn't a complete waste of screen time for me. (You even said you enjoyed watching DJ.) Again, in the middle episode of trilogies, heroes fail. Anakin lost his mother and took a step towards the dark side. Anakin and Padme abandoned their values and start a secret marriage. Han gets frozen. Leia falls in love with and loses Han.

What was Luke's "accomplishment" in going to Bespin? He abandoned his Jedi training. He got beaten bad and his hand cut off. He was told an evil villain is his father. Luke went to rescue Han and Leia, and Luke got rescued by Leia. Luke accomplished absolutely nothing and lost a lot. Then Artoo has to save Luke, Leia, Chewie, Lando and Threepio by escaping into hyperspace. Artoo is the only hero of the story's climax which is literally just flicking a switch to get away.

Fans that are so bothered by the Poe-Finn-Rose mission failing in TLJ must hate TESB.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
...the First Order supposedly controls the Galaxy now. So...why not call in another ship to head them off?

So...the biggest tree on top of the biggest hill.

I didn't get that the First Order controls the whole galaxy now, but maybe I missed that. I'll try to listen for that on my next viewing.

Done. In the film, Rey tells Luke that the First Order will control all major systems within weeks. I did some other research (probably Wookieepedia because I don't have the primary TLJ sources myself yet).

What is not outright stated in the film is that during the events of the films, there is a war going on between the First Order and the New Republic. After the Starkiller base destroyed the entire Republic capital system and the bulk of the Republic Fleet (which has been extremely downsized after the downfall of the Empire), many Republic system immediately surrendered to the First Order based mainly on the fact of their evil intentions (despite the subsequent reports of the Starkiller being destroyed). However some systems refused to surrender so the First Order went to take them by force.

So while the First Order does seem to have gained control of a lot of the galaxy overnight, they still have many forces engaged in Republic systems throughout the galaxy in a war Rey expects to take a number of weeks. That would seem to be why the First Order don't have an unlimited number of ships available to head off the Resistance Fleet.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
What is not outright stated in the film is that during the events of the films, there is a war going on between the First Order and the New Republic.


Don't we see Maz Kanata fighting in one of those battles?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have TLJ Visual Dictionary? I've just heard that there's info in it about Snoke....that would lead you to believe that he will be in Episode IX.

Hm....
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
And....when are we going to see anything about the Knights of Ren?

My guess would be Episode IX.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
In that same vein, what happened to Black Squadron from TFA?

Black Squadron was not in TFA. It was Red Squadron and Blue Squadron. Poe commanded both squadrons so had the callsign of Black Leader. According to Wookieepedia, Black Squadron was created just for the Poe comic book, which I understand is a prequel to TFA. You'll probably find out what happens to them in the comic.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
TLJ picks up immediately after TFA. Where is Temmin Wexley and the others?

The actor that plays Snap is a personal friend of JJ Abrams, so Snap may be back in Episode IX. As far as where Snap and any other TFA pilots that weren't in TLJ were, they could have escorted another Resistance ship that left before the opening of TLJ. Maybe the Visual Dictionary will have a blurb about it.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Whill wrote:
What is not outright stated in the film is that during the events of the films, there is a war going on between the First Order and the New Republic.

Don't we see Maz Kanata fighting in one of those battles?

She said it was a union dispute.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Does anyone have TLJ Visual Dictionary?

I don't yet. It is #1 on my Christmas list, so hopefully I'll get it.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Personally, I think there is something to the accusations of feminist social justice themes. Notice that the women in charge (Leia and Admiral Holdo) appear thoughtful and far-sighted in their decision making, while the principle men are generally presented as impulsive, reckless, cowardly or bitter (and ultimately wrong-headed). Even when the women in the film make impulsive or reckless choices (Rey and Rose, in particular), their decisions come across as noble or self-sacrificing.


While i am loath to get into politics (not sure if Whill smacks it down or not), it DOES touch on a general trend in TV/Movies over the past # of years, where women = good/smart/wise, men = dumb/reckless/wrong etc.. Same in Commercials..

CRMcNeill wrote:
Apparently, they were armed with a twin laser cannon. Nothing else. As in, even less firepower than the T-47's brought to the Battle of Hoth, against walkers that were much more powerful than AT-ATs.


So it was fool hardy of them to have even tried.. SO WHAT was Poe actually thinking??

CRMcNeill wrote:
It was kinda hard to take her seriously when she looked more like she was going out to a formal dinner, not a battle. Not that her wardrobe choices made her incompetent, but film is primarily a visual media, and as they say, the clothes make the man (or woman). Yes, Leia was wearing a dress, too, but Leia's relative competence and leadership ability had long since been established as part of her character. Holdo was an unknown.


I had little issue with her dress, more with her attitude.. Almost like "Oh darn, now i am in command. What the Flip do i do??"

CRMcNeill wrote:
Personally, I don't see what Phasma did to make herself such a big deal. Her armor was obviously the brains of the outfit. All she did was play the Boba Fett role: stand around and look menacing, then fail to deliver the goods when it came to an actual fight. Gwendolyn Christie's Brienne of Tarth character from GoT proves she has the chops to play a bad-@$$ brawler, but the Phasma we see on screen is underwhelming.


Worse, unlike Fett, who actually DID something right (tracked Han for vader), Phansma has done what?? Other than sound/look incompetent?

CRMcNeill wrote:
And they wouldn't've needed the escape route if the Poe/Finn/Rose escape plan hadn't put DJ in a position to sell out the Resistance in the first place.


It makes me hope in 3, some sort of disciplinary action gets TAKEN against both of Finn/rose..

CRMcNeill wrote:
That's my point! The Gungan's defeat still contributed to the overall success of the plan. The only real accomplishment of the Poe/Finn/Rose side-plan was to burn up screen time.


And to once again make fans wonder "SO What's Finn's purpose??"
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the Fin, Rose, DJ, BB-8 side quest.

It strikes me as a group of Player characters on a mission. They are victims of bad decisions and bad dice rolls.

DJ's appearance: Easily explained. He is a replacement character for one of the one's that died in the bombing attack! Very Happy

The GM thought it would be good to let him roll up a slicer character and introduce him after the players screwed up the mission to contact the NPC they were supposed to get.

Ever notice how your players are pretty quick to trust new PCs even if they've never met them before?

And his betrayal?

"Hey, I'm just playing my character. He would totally do this."
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Does anyone have TLJ Visual Dictionary? I've just heard that there's info in it about Snoke....that would lead you to believe that he will be in Episode IX.

Hm....


I bought both the TLJ Visual Guide and the TLJ Cross-sections book. Neither one (so far as I can tell) have any hint that Snoke would survive to appear in Episode IX. To say nothing of the fact that it would be exceptionally odd if they did, for the obvious reason.

Then again, if Snoke comes back as a Dark Side spirit....

Nah, I highly doubt that J.J. Abrams would descend to the depths of such depravity. I could be wrong, though. I didn't forgive Abrams for years afterwards when he depicted a black hole as a vehicle for traveling to alternate universes in Star Trek (2009). It took Neil deGrasse Tyson saying in Cosmos (2014) that that sort of thing actually might be theoretically possible for me to even begin to forgive Abrams for that.

...And then Abrams gave us the abominable "hyperspace rip" of Starkiller Base destroying Hosnian Prime and the rest of the galaxy seeing it in real time just by looking up.

Maybe I spoke too soon. Yeah, J.J. could totally sink to those aforementioned depths of depravity. Whether he will or not in Ep IX remains to be seen.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I like TLJ, there is a big part of me who wanted to see the original Trilogy characters win. What Disney did was reboot the main conflict from the original trilogy. Instead of Rebels vs. Empire, we've got Resistance vs. First Order. Mainly the same, with a few chrome changes, like next year's model of car.

I would have liked to have seen Leia as a head of state. Han, her husband, running something underground intelligence through his old smuggler contacts. Luke, a Jedi Master shepherding other Jedi. And Lando, rich, owning something or other just outside of New Republic space. Then, the First Order raises its ugly head and proves that it is more than just one of the thousands of small militant political groups that abound in the galaxy.

Instead, we see Leia, back with a Rebellion type organization--still and underdog because the New Republic does not formally recognize the Resistance. Han and Chewie go back to their smuggling roots, just like in the original trilogy. And, Luke, after a failed attempt, goes off to die, hiding on some forgotten world.

I can see why Disney went the way it did. First, the prequels were about the Emperor, the heads of state, the creme of the Jedi Order. So, we'd had a decade of those films.

And, then, there's the EU...decades of comics and novels, the majority of which is focused on Leia as head of state, Han, her husband, doing Republic business. Luke, the Jedi Master and head of the New Order of Jedi Knights. And, Lando, rich and owning something just outside of New Republic space.

It has been a long time since the films reflected the feeling of the original trilogy. And, after all, the conflict--thus, the drama--resides with the battle, not the aftermath.

So, now, we have First Order vs. Resistance.



One thing I will say, though, about the new direction of the Star Wars stories. I really have no idea of what to expect about the next movie. I'm totally clueless.

That's probably the highest compliment I can give a Rian, because he got us there.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fuel Thing


I'm reading the third Marvel Poe Dameron Volume, and Fuel, and the Resistance's lack there of it, is central to the plot.

It's interesting how they worked into the last story the way the First Order found to limit the Resistance's supply.

For those that game in the Star Wars universe, or for those that just like to know details: Fuel comes in more than one type. There's Tibanna Gas (not sure if this is to "fuel" turbo lasers or another use for the gas, as we already know it is used for plasma ammo for blasters and turbo lasers), Rydonium, and Hypermatter.

It doesn't say, but that seems like Tibanna Gas (Fuel for turbo lasers), Rydonium (Fuel for sub-light drives), and Hypermatter (Fuel for the Hyperdrive). Just a guess by yours truly. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
About the Fin, Rose, DJ, BB-8 side quest.

It strikes me as a group of Player characters on a mission. They are victims of bad decisions and bad dice rolls.

DJ's appearance: Easily explained. He is a replacement character for one of the one's that died in the bombing attack! Very Happy

The GM thought it would be good to let him roll up a slicer character and introduce him after the players screwed up the mission to contact the NPC they were supposed to get.

Ever notice how your players are pretty quick to trust new PCs even if they've never met them before?

And his betrayal?

"Hey, I'm just playing my character. He would totally do this."


That is SO very true.. Especially the 'so quick to trust' aspect..
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I'm less concerned about the ends than I am about the middle. Nowhere else in the Star Wars trilogy did a side mission by lesser characters prove to be such a failure. Not only did their plan not succeed, it made matters even worse. The closest we get is Jar Jar Binks in TPM, and the Gungan Army would've lost that battle regardless of his bumbling.


In TESB, Han and Leia go to get the Falcon fixed. The end result is that the neutral Cloud City becomes an imperial protectorate, Han is encased in carbonite and sold to Jabba the Hutt, and Luke is mutilated.

Anakin went to save Shmi and came back with her dead and having committed genocide.

Like, seriously. Genocide.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
In TESB, Han and Leia go to get the Falcon fixed. The end result is that the neutral Cloud City becomes an imperial protectorate, Han is encased in carbonite and sold to Jabba the Hutt, and Luke is mutilated.

But the side mission of escaping the Imperial Fleet was a success; they just didn't escape Boba Fett. This was more a matter of Han being better than most of the opposition than it was the result of an on-the-fly high-risk plan.

Quote:
Anakin went to save Shmi and came back with her dead and having committed genocide.

Like, seriously. Genocide.

Mass murder, more like. Genocide would be to engage in a deliberate campaign to wipe out ALL sand people, not just the tribe that killed his mother.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The Fuel Thing


I'm reading the third Marvel Poe Dameron Volume, and Fuel, and the Resistance's lack there of it, is central to the plot.

It's interesting how they worked into the last story the way the First Order found to limit the Resistance's supply.

For those that game in the Star Wars universe, or for those that just like to know details: Fuel comes in more than one type. There's Tibanna Gas (not sure if this is to "fuel" turbo lasers or another use for the gas, as we already know it is used for plasma ammo for blasters and turbo lasers), Rydonium, and Hypermatter.

It doesn't say, but that seems like Tibanna Gas (Fuel for turbo lasers), Rydonium (Fuel for sub-light drives), and Hypermatter (Fuel for the Hyperdrive). Just a guess by yours truly. Wink


All of this can be explained in the 1E Fuel rules from GG6. But, in a scene where the X-Wings are refueling, there is a hose, like a fire hose, connected to the ship, indicating that the fuel is liquid.

Which would go against the 1E rules.

Of course, you could speculate that the X-Wings were, at that point, refueling Tibanna Gas for their turbo lasers, having already replaced the fuel cells.
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