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"Less Than" Damaged
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

I would say yes it would be reasonable that the old player also then used the book and the templates the others chose from.
BUT I would say that it would not be reasonable to say that regardless of what the boo or template states I don't allow the attrinutes there, you can only have one xD and so and so..........


Thanks. Though on your latter line, if i am using base book templates, then i've already approved those, regardless of whether they had two attributes at 4d or such..
So if i've already green lit them, why would i then booboo their being selected?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Yupp a litte mix up there.....

I would say yes it would be reasonable that the old player also then used the book and the templates the others chose from.
BUT I would say that it would not be reasonable to say that regardless of what the boo or template states I don't allow the attrinutes there, you can only have one xD and so and so..........

Mama, you've restated this same thing multiple times. As I've started:
    (1) R&E p.30-33 states, "If you still can't find what you're looking for, you can create your own template... When you're done, show your new template to the gamemaster for approval. The gamemaster can change or cross out anything". I agree with this rule. The gamemaster is the master of the game.
    (2) I do allow my players to have the opportunity to sell me on their character concept requiring two attributes of 4D or more. The few templates that I have with two 4D or more attributes are "pre-approved" character concepts. If a player is designing his own template, I have to consider the template for approval anyway, attribute dice allocation and all.

Naaman wrote:
I think you are conflating garhkal's GM rules with Whill's.

For what it's worth, I don't think either of them is unreasonable with their standards.

Thanks! That means a lot coming from you.

Naaman has shared with me an in-depth character background he crafted for a character. I would have to say that most GMs have never had a player like Naaman. He is the type of player who might get me to approve his PC with multiple 4D or more attributes. He could earn it with pouring so much detail into his character.


Thanks, Whill.

But, to be fair, character creation is the primary appeal of RPGs to me. The way my mind works, there is something fun about trying to balance opportunity costs in order to express a concept. I try to stick as close to whatever rules there are, and if I just can't, I'll pitch some compromises to the GM. There have been a few times when the GM just wouldn't go for it (usually, I suspect, for simplicity's sake, rather than because of some staunch commitment to "the rules"), and of those times, most play experiences were underwhelming.

Now, when I say "character creation," I'm referring to not only the starting character, but the projected development of that character along a story-based arc (to include both character development and skill/ability development, which may be influenced by the story progression).

Oh, and, Whill, you have PM.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Now, when I say "character creation," I'm referring to not only the starting character, but the projected development of that character along a story-based arc (to include both character development and skill/ability development, which may be influenced by the story progression).

Oh, and, Whill, you have PM.

Thank you! Session Zero of my campaigns include the whole group discussing the type of campaign and general story arc and theme. Then we discuss and decide as a group who will play what type of character in broad party role terms such as pilot, copilot, gun bunny, face, tech, Force-user, etc. and of course these roles can and do overlap (primary this, secondary that, etc.).

Next each player and I meet individually to hash out specifics such as species, template, character background, personality, objectives, and character arcs for the campaign. Of course players get together with each other for ideas for the inter-character relationship aspects of the character arcs. Then each player fine tunes all the details, completes a character sheet and submits it to me for final approval. Then we discuss any possible questions or concerns I have and agree on any tweaks or changes, but it is honestly very rarely that by that point in the process there is anything rejected by me. And when rejections do occur, the majority of them are equipment or weapons, not details of the character itself.

Then each player creates some NPC underworld contacts of his PC and we finalize them together. And at some point, as a group we design the campaign's (starting) ship.

Mamatried wrote:
I must have misunderstood then as it seemed to me it was only the "pre made" templates with a 2x 4D combo. that you accepted, this due you you stating 1 4d, and could be 4d+1, and then a 3d+2, but not 2 at 4d.

I can not see this in any way, regardless of how the attributes are allocated.

OK, you misunderstood, even though I stated multiple times that I do consider multiple 4D or higher attributes if it is really important to the player's character concept. I am gamemaster and I am master of my own game. I make the rules, but I am gamemaster so I have the authority to make exceptions to my own rules. The rules are there for a good reason. The rules are there to support me doing my job. But ultimately, my judgement is superior to even my own rules. This is all GM 101. I understood this in my childhood in the 80s, but I have gotten a little better at it over the years.

Mamatried wrote:
As you stated you liked versitile characters, and to me it seems you have experienced most being overly specialized, maybe.

Incorrect. Actually just the opposite. I've been running this game for 30 years. I had very few overspecialized characters in the early days but learned early on it can be bad so implemented my player-created template rules in the early 90s. In the process I described at the top of this post, I very rarely have had any player challenge the rule and try to have multiple superlative attributes. I have never had a player and I not come to an agreement on attributes. I never had a player quit the campaign over it.

But I have never had you as a player. If you and your group don't experience the the problem I addressed with my rule, then great. It has no bearing on you. Please keep in mind the forum posting guideline (that is especially house rule discussions) which includes, "if you vehemently oppose an idea and/or don’t have anything to add to the discussion, please consider just moving on." Thank you.

Mamatried wrote:
Not that I personally would ever do it, but I can see value in a 4D 4D 4D 2D 2D 2D attribute range.

Part of a player group of a good number of regular PCs that covers the character's deficiencies, this PC could possibly do just fine in my game. But if the PC ended up out of his element and away from his companions, the PC could fail miserably. As a GM I make an effort to make all attributes important so there are no effective dump stats in my game. This PC would inevitably be in less than ideal situations and it may be deadly. Even a low technical could get you killed if you can't diffuse the explosive in time. Sure it could happen to any character but chances are greater the more 2D attributes you have.

Tol-Yun wrote:
And I thought this thread was about damage and how to imply some means of balancing high str. characters in a fight...

Does "broken templates and why they are broken/ the deeper meaning of attribute limits" not deserve a topic of its own?

Topic drift is a normal everyday thing here. Normally I would be happy to oblige a request to split a thread when a tangent conversation dominates a thread, but not in this case because it is a quite pointless conversation.

Not too far off from the OP, a mod was thrown up to address the "Blaster-proof Wookiee" phenomena and I responded with why I felt that mod would be bad in my own game but also in RAW. That lead to Mama repeatedly attacking my solutions to problems he doesn't see as even existing. Stating your opinion in response to another opinion is fine, but this whole entire tangent is Mama bashing my house rules. If he wants to create his own thread devoted to attacking my house rules he is welcome to and anyone who wants to discuss it there can. Either way, I agree that this tangent should just end here now and we should get back on track.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing a bit of a re-think on the original concept. I've posted a house rule elsewhere about how weapons inflict Movement Damage, and it inspired me to come up with an alternate version of my original idea.

What I'm thinking is this:
    If a character takes a hit, but soaks the damage by 10 points or less, they must make a Running / Agility roll against the current Terrain, modified by the degree of success on the Damage roll.
      Strength > Damage by = Terrain Modifier
      +1-3 = +15
      +4-6 = +10
      +7-10 = +5
    Any Movement Failures are resolved as per the Movement Mishap Tables. MAPs apply as normal.
This could potentially also be carried over to Stun Damage, so that a character who takes Stun Damage also has the chance of being knocked off their feet (as opposed to having no choice when Wounded or worse).

This rule is also a lot easier to transfer over to Vehicular Movement than the original concept.

Thoughts?
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought I had was letting a Wookiee have 4D STR but allow him to buy up Lifting and also use Lifting for Damage. Therefore he’s easier to hurt like human but still have the great great strength we expect from a Wookiee.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
A thought I had was letting a Wookiee have 4D STR but allow him to buy up Lifting and also use Lifting for Damage. Therefore he’s easier to hurt like human but still have the great great strength we expect from a Wookiee.

Something I've seen suggested elsewhere was allowing characters to use either Base Strength or 1/2 of their Stamina dice to soak damage. IIRC, the D6 Space Strength Damage rules use 1/2 Strength or 1/2 Lifting.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Something I've seen suggested elsewhere was allowing characters to use either Base Strength or 1/2 of their Stamina dice to soak damage. IIRC, the D6 Space Strength Damage rules use 1/2 Strength or 1/2 Lifting.

I have versions of both of those in my Star Wars D6 Damage rules...

Ninja-Bear wrote:
A thought I had was letting a Wookiee have 4D STR but allow him to buy up Lifting and also use Lifting for Damage. Therefore he’s easier to hurt like human but still have the great great strength we expect from a Wookiee.

A STR 4D Wookiee is a great idea, and having Lifting +2D (6D) is great strength as it is. Having STR-damage be half-Lifting is still a lot of extra damage if everyone has half-Lifting for STR-damage.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill if you haven’t guessed it, I pull the Lifting damage from D6 Space. In my own games, I created a separate skill called Brawling damage.

I can’t remember where on the Holonet I saw this idea but the author misremembered and applied the the rules from D6 Space Strength Damage to Resist rolls. Iirc the math then made STR 3D perhaps 2D but then brought down STR 6D to either 3D or 4D due the halving.

Last thought, I got to player the prevention Wookiee in a sample FFG game lowhrick I think? And man did I play him like a tank and man sometimes it’s fun to charge head first and kick scales! I did that to the Trandoshan bounty Hunter rolled great and he never knew what took his head off-literally.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
Whill if you haven’t guessed it, I pull the Lifting damage from D6 Space. In my own games, I created a separate skill called Brawling damage.

I can’t remember where on the Holonet I saw this idea but the author misremembered and applied the the rules from D6 Space Strength Damage to Resist rolls. Iirc the math then made STR 3D perhaps 2D but then brought down STR 6D to either 3D or 4D due the halving.


It is a consistent hallucination of mine that this is the d6 rules. Every so often, it comes back, and I post something about it, and they have to remind me that I'm just getting senile. Wink
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
I can’t remember where on the Holonet I saw this idea but the author misremembered and applied the the rules from D6 Space Strength Damage to Resist rolls. Iirc the math then made STR 3D perhaps 2D but then brought down STR 6D to either 3D or 4D due the halving.

Halving STR to resist damage for all characters? Ouch! That's very harsh. The game is already pretty deadly with rolling full STR to resist damage (unless you are a 5D STR Wookiee). Sounds like something an evil GM would do.

What CRM suggested and I implemented in my rules was making Damage Resistance be full STR or half-stamina, whichever is greater. That gives low STR characters a skill-based way to increase Damage Resistance. If you want to cap it so high STR characters can't become more blaster-proof, then that I think would be reasonable.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill I must be doing something wrong cause I haven’t found the game very deadly.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
Whill I must be doing something wrong cause I haven’t found the game very deadly.

Our experiences may be different. If your group is having fun, then you are doing nothing wrong. You should do whatever works for your game.

My reaction was based on never having encountered the suggestion of resisting damage being half-strength. Even you indicated it was an obscure Holonet post you can't find. And this seems like a radical change from RAW. It would seem to me that if this degree of change from RAW were necessary, it would be because RAW is the opposite of too deadly. RAW, or something not so radically different, seems to be working for the majority of gaming groups.

Now 1e, that RAW was not deadly enough. To mortally wound a character, the damage roll had to be three times the resistance roll. It did not at all come close to simulating blaster fights with stormtroopers, which typically took at least two hits from heavy blasters or rifles to incapacitate. To partially address it, my group just added +1D to all blaster damage stats.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the OP idea though I probably wouldn’t remember it in play. However the knockdown could be from a Complication of the Wild Die. Yea you Soaked it but that 1 means you fall or at least make a DEX Roll.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer a simple cumulative -1D penalty to all actions for each hit that causes no damage. It well reflects the minor pain and distractions caused by a light hit without being overly punative. It also allows multiple shots to effectively suppress a tough character in a reasonable way. Note what I am proposing is different than a 'stunned' result because it only last the current round and does not have the ongoing affect that requires resting for a minute to avoid falling unconscious if they are stunned more times than their Strength attribute.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I prefer a simple cumulative -1D penalty to all actions for each hit that causes no damage. It well reflects the minor pain and distractions caused by a light hit without being overly punative. It also allows multiple shots to effectively suppress a tough character in a reasonable way. Note what I am proposing is different than a 'stunned' result because it only last the current round and does not have the ongoing affect that requires resting for a minute to avoid falling unconscious if they are stunned more times than their Strength attribute.

I like the simplicity of it, but I do think there should be a threshold below which the target can shrug off hits without effect. Failing the Damage roll by more than 10 points sounds like a decent starting point.
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