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Speeder onboard a light freighter?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The explanation for both scenarios would be that the addition of pods / spheres added sufficiently to the ship's mass that the engines lacked the thrust to completely offset it, thus slowing them down. In the case of a YT-1300, a speeder's mass is negligible (1-5 metric tons) when counted against the ship's cargo capacity.

An alternative possibility from the Honor Harrington universe is that a ship's maximum acceleration and top speed are limited by the strength of its acceleration compensator and particle shielding (which maxed out at around 0.8C). Maybe a ship's listed cargo capacity is the point at which its gross mass (tare/empty weight + net/cargo weight) begins to exceed the ability of the ship's acceleration compensator to offset the inertia from the drive thrust...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a minute there I thought I accidentally logged onto a Traveller forum.

Naaman wrote:
I still like the idea of just driving the speeder up the "docking ramp" that every ship in SW has (wink, wink) and calling it a day.
Works for me.

On one freighter we had a pair of speeder bikes which allowed for 2 PC pilots and 2 passengers.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what skiffs are for

http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php?title=Skiffs

Most of them are 9 meters long and thin enough to get through most entrances. Not an atmospheric landing craft but you could likely modify one to do that.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

9 meters is long for something that needs to fit on a small freighter. A YT-1300 is only 26.7 meters in length and most of it is taken up with something other than cargo space. In comparison, Luke's landspeeder is only 3.4 meters long. Fitting that into a cargo bay seems a lot more plausible.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do feel like the lengths given for a lot of the speeders in WEG are bloated compared to what we see on screen.

I wouldn't have a problem with my players loading a speeder onto a freighter, most characters I've had experience with use swoops or speeder bikes rather than multi-passenger speeders, and the bike types seem like they'd be easier to hand wave into the cargo bay.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Not directed at RR's post, just more musing on this topic)

It's a cargo bay for a freighter. KITT rolled right on into the back of a trailer. Race cars travel in trailers, and those things have a max gross weight of "merely" 40 tons (or, 36 metric tons).

We are talking about space craft that are intended to transport at least double, and often triple (or more) the capacity of a modern day tractor trailer.

It seems impossible to me that the cargo bay would not have the means to allow for something speeder-sized to fit in it.

A typical modern day car is ~6 feet (1.8 - 1.9 meters) wide at it's widest point. I imagine if a freighter is meant to be able to transport things like furniture of all sorts of varieties to accommodate a plethora of species and anatomy types, the bay doors would necessarily be large enough to allow a speeder to drive right up in there.

For making trips across the galaxy, if you cant fit big (speeder sized stuff and even WAY bigger than that) onto the ship, it becomes impractical. What's the next option? Use a capitol ship just to get a speeder to the neighboring planet?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:


It seems impossible to me that the cargo bay would not have the means to allow for something speeder-sized to fit in it.

A typical modern day car is ~6 feet (1.8 - 1.9 meters) wide at it's widest point. I imagine if a freighter is meant to be able to transport things like furniture of all sorts of varieties to accommodate a plethora of species and anatomy types, the bay doors would necessarily be large enough to allow a speeder to drive right up in there.

For making trips across the galaxy, if you cant fit big (speeder sized stuff and even WAY bigger than that) onto the ship, it becomes impractical. What's the next option? Use a capitol ship just to get a speeder to the neighboring planet?


That might be true for modern freighters, but look at even the base book's schematics on many freighters.. Their cargo bays are not even straight rectangular.. The one for a YT-1300 is concave.. (Page 31, Platts smuggler's guide). Even the rectangular (ish) bays of the Ghtroc 720 (as shown on page 34) may be able to HAVE a modern car in it, but how you getting that car IN? Since the hatch for the cargo ramp is under the crew section..

Then we get into the ones in the complete Starship guide
The Starwind yacht, has a decent size hold, but only a small (maybe 2-3 meter) circular hatch coming into it..
The Barloz medium freighter, has at least a decent size hold, but again, only a 1.5m wide (if that) entry way.

The Rendili-Surron Starlight-class Freighter has at least, a decent size cargo hatch/repulsorlift platform..

And it's the same with most every freighter we see schematics.. The L19 and the HT-2200 are the only few i can see that MAY have the cargo doors to let most vehicles get in..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


That might be true for modern freighters, but look at even the base book's schematics on many freighters.. Their cargo bays are not even straight rectangular.. The one for a YT-1300 is concave.. (Page 31, Platts smuggler's guide). Even the rectangular (ish) bays of the Ghtroc 720 (as shown on page 34) may be able to HAVE a modern car in it, but how you getting that car IN? Since the hatch for the cargo ramp is under the crew section..

Then we get into the ones in the complete Starship guide
The Starwind yacht, has a decent size hold, but only a small (maybe 2-3 meter) circular hatch coming into it..
The Barloz medium freighter, has at least a decent size hold, but again, only a 1.5m wide (if that) entry way.

The Rendili-Surron Starlight-class Freighter has at least, a decent size cargo hatch/repulsorlift platform..

And it's the same with most every freighter we see schematics.. The L19 and the HT-2200 are the only few i can see that MAY have the cargo doors to let most vehicles get in..


Oh, I don't doubt the issues with the schematics for a second. What I'm getting at is that the schematics are "wrong." As in, if you've got 100 tons of cargo, and can only possibly move 1 cubic meter at a time, you've got a poorly designed ship (seems like any industrial designer should be able to figure this out... even if after their first design goes into production the consumer feedback is: "your cargo bay access SUCKS!!!!!")

Like I said, going by "schematics" it would be a nightmare trying to off load a shipment of refrigerators or sofas or what have you.

IMO, it's just unreasonable to prohibit a speeder from being EASILY loaded and unloaded from a freighter that has a cargo capacity that is two orders of magnitude greater than the speeder's mass (especially if we assume that a fork-lift droid can get in and out WITH refrigerator-sized cargo).

GM fiat should trump schematic drawings in favor of something that makes some kind of sense... IMO.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:


It seems impossible to me that the cargo bay would not have the means to allow for something speeder-sized to fit in it.

A typical modern day car is ~6 feet (1.8 - 1.9 meters) wide at it's widest point. I imagine if a freighter is meant to be able to transport things like furniture of all sorts of varieties to accommodate a plethora of species and anatomy types, the bay doors would necessarily be large enough to allow a speeder to drive right up in there.

For making trips across the galaxy, if you cant fit big (speeder sized stuff and even WAY bigger than that) onto the ship, it becomes impractical. What's the next option? Use a capitol ship just to get a speeder to the neighboring planet?


That might be true for modern freighters, but look at even the base book's schematics on many freighters.. Their cargo bays are not even straight rectangular.. The one for a YT-1300 is concave.. (Page 31, Platts smuggler's guide). Even the rectangular (ish) bays of the Ghtroc 720 (as shown on page 34) may be able to HAVE a modern car in it, but how you getting that car IN? Since the hatch for the cargo ramp is under the crew section..

Then we get into the ones in the complete Starship guide
The Starwind yacht, has a decent size hold, but only a small (maybe 2-3 meter) circular hatch coming into it..
The Barloz medium freighter, has at least a decent size hold, but again, only a 1.5m wide (if that) entry way.

The Rendili-Surron Starlight-class Freighter has at least, a decent size cargo hatch/repulsorlift platform..

And it's the same with most every freighter we see schematics.. The L19 and the HT-2200 are the only few i can see that MAY have the cargo doors to let most vehicles get in..


Some schematics/deck plans I've seen show cargo lifts/hatches on the floor of freighters.

The problem there is again the size of the lift hatch. Sometimes the lift/hatch is big enough, sometimes not, and sometimes no size is mentioned at all.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Oh, I don't doubt the issues with the schematics for a second. What I'm getting at is that the schematics are "wrong." As in, if you've got 100 tons of cargo, and can only possibly move 1 cubic meter at a time, you've got a poorly designed ship (seems like any industrial designer should be able to figure this out... even if after their first design goes into production the consumer feedback is: "your cargo bay access SUCKS!!!!!")


So you feel the designers of this game were wrong in all the work they put into making those schematics.. Interesting..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So you feel the designers of this game were wrong in all the work they put into making those schematics.. Interesting..

g, your blindspot is your inability to acknowledge and accept that WEG could possibly have been wrong about anything. Considering the sheer number of flaws present in the various deck plans published by WEG over the years (primarily, a seeming obliviousness to the 3rd dimension, as well as the occasional omission of essential ship components; the YT-2400 deck plan in Stock Ships doesn't even have a boarding ramp), it's not an unfair criticism.

If anything, most "light" freighters seem designed to carry only cargo that can be loaded by character-scale stevedores, usually in relatively small containers. Loading larger objects (speeders and similarly sized cargos) would seem to require larger ships with larger cargo loading systems.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best loading option is going to be a cargo bay where the loading door takes up one entire side of the bay, much like a semi-truck or the loading ramp on a C-130 or C-17. That way, any single object that can fit into the cargo bay with the door closed will be able to be loaded and unloaded through that door.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
So you feel the designers of this game were wrong in all the work they put into making those schematics.. Interesting..

g, your blindspot is your inability to acknowledge and accept that WEG could possibly have been wrong about anything.


Wrong about a few things, yes i have admitted that. BUT wrong on every damn schematic for ships?? That's pushing it.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:

Oh, I don't doubt the issues with the schematics for a second. What I'm getting at is that the schematics are "wrong." As in, if you've got 100 tons of cargo, and can only possibly move 1 cubic meter at a time, you've got a poorly designed ship (seems like any industrial designer should be able to figure this out... even if after their first design goes into production the consumer feedback is: "your cargo bay access SUCKS!!!!!")


So you feel the designers of this game were wrong in all the work they put into making those schematics.. Interesting..


If we are talking about the work that went into the publication, then I would venture to speculate that the artists who contributed schematics have no real world experience in star ship design ( Laughing ) , and probably lack a background in industrial transportation or warehouse functions, etc.

Can you imagine trying to unload 100 metric tons (that is, 100,000 kg) 1 "character scale" box at a time (i.e. no more than 15-20kg per box)? The access ports are so small that only one character can go through it at a time, meaning that you can't have people going in and out simultaneously. Someone going in? Gotta wait for the guy already in there to come out... It just doesn't work from a logistics stand point.

In any case, roll with what you think makes sense, bro.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Can you imagine trying to unload 100 metric tons (that is, 100,000 kg) 1 "character scale" box at a time (i.e. no more than 15-20kg per box)?


Yes I actually can. When I was in the Navy that's exactly how we loaded foodstuffs onto our ship.

Crewmen lined up from the pier onto the ship thru the corridors to the store rooms and passed stuff to each other i box/package at a time.

We had to do those evolutions several times during a 6 month cruise.


My ship carried over 400 crew and 960 Marines.
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