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Future Jump Calculations
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Whill wrote:
Interesting. The loving gesture does make more sense if Han activated the lightsaber to sacrifice himself to save his son from the dark stain of patricide.

That idea is true insofar as it goes, but I don't think that's what happened. That look of shock and surprise on Han's face when he was impaled more than suggests that he didn't know it was coming. He might not have been surprised enough to cry out like Rey and Chewbacca did (and Finn didn't make a sound but the look of shock on his face was palpable enough), but there's no doubt in my mind that Han, even as savvy as he was, didn't see that coming.

I think it would be hard to suppress any facial reaction of getting impaled by lightsaber, even if you knew it was coming. As far as the witnesses, they were off in the distance and both Han and Kylo's hands were on the weapons, so no one could tell who activated the lightsaber. So there is doubt in my mind that Han didn't activate it.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

That look of shock and surprise on Han's face when he was impaled more than suggests that he didn't know it was coming.


Ben is a chip off the ol' block.

Like when Greedo took that blast from under the table.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Whill wrote:
Interesting. The loving gesture does make more sense if Han activated the lightsaber to sacrifice himself to save his son from the dark stain of patricide.

That idea is true insofar as it goes, but I don't think that's what happened. That look of shock and surprise on Han's face when he was impaled more than suggests that he didn't know it was coming. He might not have been surprised enough to cry out like Rey and Chewbacca did (and Finn didn't make a sound but the look of shock on his face was palpable enough), but there's no doubt in my mind that Han, even as savvy as he was, didn't see that coming.

I think it would be hard to suppress any facial reaction of getting impaled by lightsaber, even if you knew it was coming. As far as the witnesses, they were off in the distance and both Han and Kylo's hands were on the weapons, so no one could tell who activated the lightsaber. So there is doubt in my mind that Han didn't activate it.


From both time's i have watched it, it was obvious to me that kylo was the one who activated it.. Not pops.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
GRAVITY WELLS AND HYPERSPACE JUMPS

Another thing that Stackpole's book mentioned that it was impossible for ships to enter space from a gravity well--but that distance where the ship gets stuck varies according to the power of the hyperdrive.

What's the reference for this? I went looking in Rogue Squadron (specifically the battle with the Interdictor) and couldn't find this reference.

One thing it did specifically mention (as you mentioned below) is the automatic hyperdrive cut-out, and the ability of the X-Wing to detect an unexpected gravity well (the Interdictor) in their path, both of which are consistent with common knowledge as to the functioning of hyperdrives in gravity.

Quote:
HYPERSPACE AND COMMUNICATIONS

Also....about the discussion on communications from hyperspace: the X-Wing novel mentions that it is possible to communicate with other vessels while in hyperspace.

In this case, it's likely only possible because the ships were traveling in close formation to each other while in hyperspace. Even then, I'd probably go with burst-type text-only messages to keep things mostly in line with conventional wisdom.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
As far as any nominally legal corporation I can't see them trusting that BoSS can't be bribed, hacked, or infiltrated. And they may not want their competitors getting their hands on details about their ship movements.

This, IMO, is because you are thinking in strictly clandestine terms. In a galaxy-wide economy, the vast majority of the traffic is going to be above-board, with container ships and bulk freighters hauling legal cargo, with manifests, bills of lading, crew logs and so on and so forth, all in compliance with the law, and with major shipping corporations operating thousands of ships across the galaxy. Such corporations may not be in the habit of making their shipping data free for public consumption, but neither do they have a pressing need to keep it secret. The BoSS isn't going to be in the habit of giving out that information for free either.

Put simply, this may not be a service Alliance or Fringe PCs take advantage of on a regular basis (if at all), but they have a far more vested interest in privacy than, say, a local billionaire who wants a safe hyperspace route from Chandrila to Pantalomin for his star yacht and has the credits to pay someone else to do the calculating for him.

For those who are concerned about BoSS getting too much information, there are alternatives, such as bribes and false identification. BoSS may have it in their records that Biggs Antilles, captain of the Sunfighter Franchise, paid for a pre-calculated route from Nar Shadda to Corellia, and had the ID to prove it, but have no way of knowing that the ID and the ship name were false.

There is also the black market side, where a BoSS official may have a side business in providing pre-calculated hyperspace routes, no questions asked, for the right price.

So yes, a PC is unlikely to take advantage of this service on a regular basis, but this does not invalidate the idea in general for the galaxy at large, nor does it mean that a PC can't make use of it if they take appropriate precautions.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
GRAVITY WELLS AND HYPERSPACE JUMPS

Another thing that Stackpole's book mentioned that it was impossible for ships to enter space from a gravity well--but that distance where the ship gets stuck varies according to the power of the hyperdrive.

What's the reference for this? I went looking in Rogue Squadron (specifically the battle with the Interdictor) and couldn't find this reference.


Chapter 13. This specific reference to speed and gravity is on page 132. The Interdictor is identified on page 134.





Quote:
One thing it did specifically mention (as you mentioned below) is the automatic hyperdrive cut-out, and the ability of the X-Wing to detect an unexpected gravity well (the Interdictor) in their path, both of which are consistent with common knowledge as to the functioning of hyperdrives in gravity.

Quote:
HYPERSPACE AND COMMUNICATIONS

Also....about the discussion on communications from hyperspace: the X-Wing novel mentions that it is possible to communicate with other vessels while in hyperspace.

In this case, it's likely only possible because the ships were traveling in close formation to each other while in hyperspace. Even then, I'd probably go with burst-type text-only messages to keep things mostly in line with conventional wisdom.


Possibly. It's a short reference. Read it for yourself. Page 133, last sentence on the page.

But, here's something to think about: If sensors can be used in hyperspace, then it should be likely that comms can be used, also. The technology between sensors and comms is not dissimilar.

Now, maybe there are special comms that are needed for hyperspace use--maybe graviton based communication.

But, if a hyperdrive can detect a gravity well--and it has been established that they can--then hyperspace comms should also be possible.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
This, IMO, is because you are thinking in strictly clandestine terms.
Not solely clandestine. Knowledge is power. Giving BoSS your information means it is no longer solely your information. The question any given ship owner and crew will then need to ask is

Is what I get from BoSS worth the information I give them and is what I get worth accepting the risk that they sell or give my information to someone I don't want having that information?

Different ships and crews will have different concerns and will come to different answers. Certainly the concerns of clandestine criminal organizations and rebels is likely to center on law enforcement and imperial military. But corporate spies, scouts, and even legitimate corporations will have information they do not want to make available to their competitors or customers (and in the case of corporate spies their victims and adversaries). Corporate spies and scouts often won't want to be traced or intercepted. For legitimate traders arriving at a destination ahead of your competition is a huge advantage in commodities trading for getting the best price so shipping companies and independent traders have reasons not to share their data. And for non-commercial vessels like the yachts of the rich and famous, those folks are likely to have other privacy concerns like avoiding news agencies, fans, holo-paparazzi, kidnappers, and assassins.

I'm getting the sense that you see BoSS gathering this information as a rationalization for how astrogation difficulties work or as a solution for PCs flying ships without a skilled astrogator. If that makes you happy, then use it.

Personally I think there would be a fair number of ships that won't want to hand over their data for the various different reasons I mentioned. And for me a consistent lack of effectively centralized information better fits with my view of how the Empire must be organized (or I might better say decentralized and disorganized) for the most common PC types (e.g. rebels, smugglers, bounty hunters, and other fringers) to be viable in the galaxy than does massive databases and centralized information sources. In addition, I don't really see a need to create a specific rationalization to explain exactly how and why astrogation route difficulties are what they are in the rules. For me details about BoSS central nav data raises rather than settles concerns and problems. As far as lack of a skilled astrogator that seems like it should, at most, be a temporary problem. I think that a professional skill in navigation would likely be an in-universe expectation for ships crew. So some PC or NPC or droid on any given ship ought to be able to muster at least a 4D skill in astrogation. If not the ship really shouldn't be operating outside of a single system.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
This specific reference to speed and gravity is on page 132. The Interdictor is identified on page 134.

I read it, and I didn't see any mention of it being impossible to jump to hyperspace in a gravity well. The only thing there was a brief mention of gravity being able to drag a ship out of hyperspace if its drive isn't powerful enough, but there is no similar reference in all of the EU or the films. In fact, it seems a rather flimsy statement, that a drive with the ability to fling a multi-ton starship into an alternate dimension at superluminal speeds can be overriden by a 1g gravity field.

Quote:
But, here's something to think about: If sensors can be used in hyperspace, then it should be likely that comms can be used, also. The technology between sensors and comms is not dissimilar.

The ability to use a single sensor type (one that detects gravity) is not the same as being able to use ALL sensors. The only reason the Crystal Grav-field Trap functions in hyperspace is because it has long been established that gravity fields carry over into hyperspace.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the discussion about providing BoSS with information;

It's, AFAIK, common practice to file a flight plan when departing a port, if only for safety reasons.

Rebels and criminals probably don't do so often, but I imagine the bulk of spacefaring traffic would.

It's not unlike social media; the more you share and partake, the more personal info you give to corporations...

But 90% of users don't give a drek, or take only moderate security precautions, because the convenience is worth the risk.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Regarding the discussion about providing BoSS with information;

It's, AFAIK, common practice to file a flight plan when departing a port, if only for safety reasons.

Rebels and criminals probably don't do so often, but I imagine the bulk of spacefaring traffic would.

It's not unlike social media; the more you share and partake, the more personal info you give to corporations...

But 90% of users don't give a drek, or take only moderate security precautions, because the convenience is worth the risk.


Of course, one might also file a fake flight plan... say, your flight plan has you going to Bespin, but you're actually going to Hoth... or you go to Bespin, then, while significant out of Bespin local traffic, you make a second jump to your real destination, Yavin.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What we posited in the past was that giving up your nav data to BoSS was optional, but BoSS offered a hefty discount on your chart update when you restocked.

And while BoSS was certainly the largest and most common provider of navigation support services, it was not the only one to do so. The Empire and the Alliance both maintained separate navigation databases for their own use (see Alliance MasterNav in the Truce at Bakura Sourcebook). It's a logical assumption that other organizations would have their own navigation databases; shipping corporations, for example, might have agreements with the BoSS to share their nav data for specific routes once the data had been scrubbed of potentially proprietary information.

But ultimately, I agree with Dred; the vast majority of the galactic population is going to give this as much thought as we do to the Terms & Conditions on our latest cellphone OS update.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I read it, and I didn't see any mention of it being impossible to jump to hyperspace in a gravity well.


The bottom of page 132 basically says that, if you get too close to the Sun's gravity well, then you can't jump to hyperspace. But, the distance from the gravity well where hyperspace jump is possible is not constant. It is variable based on the power of a ship's hyperdrive.



Quote:
But, here's something to think about: If sensors can be used in hyperspace, then it should be likely that comms can be used, also. The technology between sensors and comms is not dissimilar.

The ability to use a single sensor type (one that detects gravity) is not the same as being able to use ALL sensors. The only reason the Crystal Grav-field Trap functions in hyperspace is because it has long been established that gravity fields carry over into hyperspace.[/quote]

Yes, but SW sensors seem to be able to detect a lot of stuff.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
But 90% of users don't give a drek, or take only moderate security precautions, because the convenience is worth the risk.
99% of PCs are part of the 10% who do care.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
But 90% of users don't give a drek, or take only moderate security precautions, because the convenience is worth the risk.
99% of PCs are part of the 10% who do care.


Of course.

I was only commenting as per the 'normal' operation of BoSS and how it is feasible what McNeill is suggesting as a world-building concept; if only to drive home the exceptions to the normal order that make up the PC exploits.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The bottom of page 132 basically says that, if you get too close to the Sun's gravity well, then you can't jump to hyperspace. But, the distance from the gravity well where hyperspace jump is possible is not constant. It is variable based on the power of a ship's hyperdrive.

And this description is completely inconsistent with the RAW, and is (AFAIK) unsupported by any other media. Taken on its own, it might be a place for a house rule, but if one is trying to retcon the RAW with what we see in the films, it's simply one more contradiction in an EU that is full of them.

Quote:
Yes, but SW sensors seem to be able to detect a lot of stuff.

When they are in real space. The RAW is consistent that ships are sensor blind in hyperspace, and nothing in the films contradicts this. If all sensors worked in hyperspace, why then did the Falcon's sensors not detect the meteor shower / debris from Alderaan until after it dropped out of hyperspace instead of before?

The text from X-Wing only mentions that it detected an unexpected gravity well in the X-Wing's path, nothing more. You are inferring far too much from the available evidence.
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