The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Zulgyan's Newbie SW 1E Questions
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> First Edition and IAG -> Zulgyan's Newbie SW 1E Questions Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zulgyan
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 09 May 2017
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recomendation well recieved indeed! I do want to follow the recomended progression rate.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zulgyan
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 09 May 2017
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This came up in my first game: How do you rule "Grappling"?

I simply used opposed checks of Brawling vs. Brawling Parry. In case of success the enemy was held and could take no actions (save trying to get free, or any other reasonable one).

Any ideas?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grappling is a subset of brawling. So what you suggest makes sense.

In some circumstances, say once the attacker has successfully grappled (hit with brawling) I'd be inclined to use STR vs STR for the target to break free from the grapple.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What both of you say makes sense.

In real grappling or wrestling, once a foe gets a lock or a good hold on you, he has a distinct advantage. It's hard to break out.

I like the Brawling vs. Brawling Parry idea for the initial grab.

Then, a straight STR vs STR on the second round. This represents two people, hands on each other, one trying to make a grip, the other trying to get out.

That takes some of the power out of the grapple in the beginning, but if a character wins the Brawling toss on round one to get his hands on his foe. Then, the character wins the STR vs STR toss in round two, to finally establish a good hold (took him two rounds, or 10 seconds), then he now has a good advantage on his grappled foe.

From round 3 onward, it should be Brawling skill vs. STR. From round 3 on, anytime the foe wishes to try to break the lock, he must roll STR and beat his opponent's Brawling toss.

If the one with the advantage wants to, and has his foe in a lock, then he can decide to implement damage that round (Choking, pulling an arm out of socket, etc). That's the same Brawling vs. STR roll for damage.



I didn't put a lot of thought into the above, but on the fly, it makes some sense to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zulgyan
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 09 May 2017
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To summarize:

1. Brawling vs. Brawling Parry idea for the initial grab.

2. STR vs STR on the second round. This represents two people, hands on each other, one trying to make a grip, the other trying to get out.

3. Then, the character wins the STR vs STR toss in round two, to finally establish a good hold (took him two rounds, or 10 seconds), then he now has a good advantage on his grappled foe.

4. From round 3 onward, it should be STR (not Brawling) vs. STR. From round 3 on, anytime the foe wishes to try to break the lock, he must roll STR and beat his opponent's STR (not Brawling) roll.

If the one with the advantage wants to, and has his foe in a lock, then he can decide to implement damage that round (Choking, pulling an arm out of socket, etc). That's the same STR (not Brawling) vs. STR roll for damage.

I'm digging this.

Did 2E have explicit rules for grappling?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zulgyan wrote:
To summarize:

1. Brawling vs. Brawling Parry idea for the initial grab.

2. STR vs STR on the second round. This represents two people, hands on each other, one trying to make a grip, the other trying to get out.

3. Then, the character wins the STR vs STR toss in round two, to finally establish a good hold (took him two rounds, or 10 seconds), then he now has a good advantage on his grappled foe.

4. From round 3 onward, it should be STR (not Brawling) vs. STR. From round 3 on, anytime the foe wishes to try to break the lock, he must roll STR and beat his opponent's STR (not Brawling) roll.

If the one with the advantage wants to, and has his foe in a lock, then he can decide to implement damage that round (Choking, pulling an arm out of socket, etc). That's the same STR (not Brawling) vs. STR roll for damage.

I'm digging this.


What I suggested was a tad different.

1. Round One, A uses Brawling vs. B's Brawling Parry. Assuming A wins, keep going to 2. Otherwise, the two are separated if B wins.

2. Round Two. A STR vs. B STR to establish a lock. If A wins, go to 3. If B wins, go to 1.

3. Round Three. Nothing unless B tries to break lock, and/or if A wants to inflict damage. A uses Brawling, B uses STR.



B uses Brawling in step 3 because he's got the advantage with the lock. If Brawling is an improved skill, the more advantage A has with the lock.



Quote:
Did 2E have explicit rules for grappling?


Yep. It's a use of the Brawling skill. Here's what the rule says.

Quote:
Characters may grapple with their opponents rather than
simply slugging them. When grappling, a character is trying
to subdue his foe by wrestling him to the ground, pinning his
arms so he cannot fight back, or stop him in some other way.
When a character attempts to grapple, increase the difficulty
of his attack by +10 — if the attacker achieves a stun result
or better, the opponent is at a disadvantage: pinned, in a
headlock, or a similar situation. If the attacker wishes, he can
automatically inflict normal damage for every round the
victim is held at bay. The victim must make an opposed
Strength roll to escape, with a +1 penalty for each point by
which the character succeeded in his grapple attempt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
What I suggested was a tad different.

1. Round One, A uses Brawling vs. B's Brawling Parry. Assuming A wins, keep going to 2. Otherwise, the two are separated if B wins.

2. Round Two. A STR vs. B STR to establish a lock. If A wins, go to 3. If B wins, go to 1.

3. Round Three. Nothing unless B tries to break lock, and/or if A wants to inflict damage. A uses Brawling, B uses STR.




Examples of my suggestion:

Arno is trying to grapple Besni.

Round 1: Arno rolls 14 Brawling. Besni rolls 19 Brawling Parry.

Results: Arno move in to grab Besni, but Besni either dodged* out of the way or blocked/resisted Arno's grab.



Note: What if we allowed Dodge as a choice on the first attempt. Step One would be either Brawling vs. Dodge, or Brawling vs. Brawling Parry. Dodge is used to completely move away. Parry is used to block or resist a grab.



Round 2. Arno doesn't give up. He keeps going after Besni. Arno rolls 13 Brawling, but Besni rolls low with 9 Brawling Parry.

Results: Arno has his hands on Besni and it trying to establish a firm hold.



Round 3. Arno presses for the hold. He rolls 10 STR. Besni resists, rolling 7 STR.

Results: Arno now has a good choke hold on Besni.



Round 4. Arno just wants to hold Besni, so he does nothing at first. But, Besni tries to break out of the hold. Bresni rolls 11 STR. Arno rolls 10 Brawling.

Results: Bresni has broken the hold, but Arno still has his hands on him. The two are wrestling with Bresni trying to break free.



Round 5. Arno attempts a lock again. Arno rolls 13 STR. Bresni rolls 15 STR.

Results: Bresni has completely broken free again. If Arno wants to persist , then he needs to start at step one again, trying to get his hands on Bresni.



Note: It's up to the GM to describe the action. Very often, wrestling or grappling sees the two combatants go down on the ground. You'll have to decide when this is appropriate and describe the action from that point of view when necessary.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're looking for quick, then that 2E rule ain't bad at all.

What I came up with above is more designed to simulate a brawling wrestling attempt, with people all over the place, clawing at each other, breaking tables and crawling across the floor.

As the dice go, the participants move and up and down the three steps, like in a real wrestling match, where you grab, hold, lose your hold, grab again, get shoved off, then you go in again, trying to grab.

This takes place over several rounds.

But, also remember, 5 rounds is not even half a minute of real time--which sounds about right for people wrestling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: Zulgyan's Newbie SW 1E Questions Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Because the default game is set when there are no Jedi, PC Force Powers are kept low and weak for beginning characters. The intent is for the character to use the rules and grow in the Force over the lifetime of the campaign.


That's kinda why i hate it when i hear about DM's popping in holocrons, masters and such all over, as it winds up watering down that 'intent', to make things quicker/easier on pc force users..

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The Force Skills act more like attributes. In fact, if you look at the templates where characters are started with Force Skils, their attributes are lowered to accommodate the dice put into Force Skills.

Force Powers (what you would think of as Skills) have no dice. Only the governor Force Skill is used.


This is one spot i have always disliked.. like you i felt they should have been called force attributes or abilities.. NOT skills..

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

To answer your question: A player could play an Alien Student of the Force and put 2D in each of the three Force Skills, starting with 3D each. But, he would dearly pay for that.
Why?
1st - He'd have to play an Alien Student of the Force. That's the only option with the default templates to get all three Force Skills with a starting character.
2nd - Because the character starts with 3D in the three Force Skills, the character only has a total of 15D spread around his attributes. That's a 3D penalty from most characters.
3rd - The character would have 3D in all three Force Skills, but he's be very weak in the skill department. First, he's starting with lower bases because of his lowered attributes, and he's only got 1D left, from his beginning skill pool, to put into normal skills. Therefore, he'll default on almost every non-Force roll to whatever his attributes are.

It is possible, but is it worth it?

That's for a player to decide.


Yup. Though one CAN start play as a NON-force sensitive (or force sensitive but not a force user) and learn that IN game, thus not being penalized by the 1-3D drop in attributes and loss of starting skill D for other skills.. BUT its a rare PC i have seen Go that route..

Zulgyan wrote:
Great job Wajeb! That's amazing.

I've been thinking that if the mandalorian character gets a regular income of credits from the Rebellion, that other characters don't get, maybe he won't get Force Points back at the end of an adventure, as a way of balacing that out. Thoughts?


But arn't the other PC's getting a 'regular income' even if its only say 50 credits a mission?

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Most civilians use credsticks as it is an easy way to carry and access a person's value. But, electronic transfer is also a leash to the local governments. Too much information is transferred, along with a person's balance, when credsticks are used.


Additionally Cred sticks are hackable! COIN is not! (though it can be pick pocketed!!)

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
With coins comes issues. Weight, for one. They're not easy to carry around. With a credtick, a PC can access his entire wealth on the spot. Not so much if he is carrying coin (unless he doesn't have much wealth).

PC will have to stash their coins someplace for safe keeping, and decide how much they are carrying on them when the leave the ship.


And the biggest one is are they using imperial coin, or local/rebel script? If local/rebel, then they might have an exchange rate issue to worry about.
If imperial.. WHERE are they actually getting the coin(s) from?

Zulgyan wrote:
Quick one. Can lightsaber swings be dodged?


Sure as in "I side step the blow". BUT not dodged as in USING the DODGE skill.. That's for ranged combat only.
When someone rolls their Melee or brawl parry skill, it not only is you blocking but also side stepping, ducking or otherwise 'avoiding the blow'..

Zulgyan wrote:
Improving Skills: Suppose you have a character with Dexterity 4D and Blaster 2D (total: 6D). To improve his total Blaster dice to 6D+1, does he need 2 skill points, or 6?

In other words, is the improvement cost calculated observing Attribute + Skill totals, o just Skill?


It's six Skill points. When you write skills you write them like "dex 3d+1, Blaster 5d+1, (s) pistol 6d+1."
Not Dex 3d+1, blaster +2d), specialty pistol +1d).

Zulgyan wrote:
Really? But you need 5 skill point to get a skill from 5D to 5D+1. 5 hours of play just to get +1 (one pip) in a good skill. Seems like very little to me! But then I'm new to this system and might be missing something.

What do you consider an appropriate rate of advancement?


It's not just the cost you need to worry about, but the Training time..

LONG post, so i will split it into another..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Plus, look at the time in game. If you award a lot of skill points every game session, then the characters are improving as astounding rates! Their skills are going up in hours!

Sometimes, a game session won't take a full game day. Sometimes, two game sessions won't take a full game day. Time slows down in rpgs under many circumstances. Then, you've got characters improving not over a year, or even a few weeks, but within the span of one day!

A good Star Wars GM should be mindful of that.


Very true Wajeb. I have had some games where the 4 hr session of play, lasted 3-4 weeks "IN game", while others maybe only took 3-4 "Days" in game..

Should both sessions have the exact same Skill point award? IMO no..

As far as the grapple-hold thing. I've always liked a three tier system.
First grapple to get a Hold.
Once you have the hold, then a 2nd brawl (grapple) success shifts it to a pin. Pinning does damage, holds don't.
If you have someone pinned, you can with a 3rd successful grapple(brawl) attack shift it to a lock. Locks like pins deal damage, but where as a pin just does straight damage round to round, locks do round +1 damage.

So let's say Grok a wookie, grabs a trooper and succeeds in getting him in a hold. next round after we check str vs str to see if the trooper breaks free or not, Grok wants to shift it to a pin. If he succeeds he does Str damage (only).
If he wishes, he can in the 3rd round of combat, try to shift that to a lock.
Now a pin does Str+1 Cumulative per round it's kept up.
So lets say the wookie's kept it in place for 3 rounds after getting it up.. That's causing Str +6!! damage..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The Force Skills act more like attributes. In fact, if you look at the templates where characters are started with Force Skils, their attributes are lowered to accommodate the dice put into Force Skills.

Force Powers (what you would think of as Skills) have no dice. Only the governor Force Skill is used.


This is one spot i have always disliked.. like you i felt they should have been called force attributes or abilities.. NOT skills..
While this is mostly just a nomenclature issue, I understand why calling Control, Sense, and Alter Force skills seems weird. But the Force powers under them don't seem anything like skills, so making Control, Sense, and Alter into attributes is also a bit weird.

On the other hand I like the idea and option of allowing certain specializations or advanced skills under the Force skills so that a particular Jedi might specialize or be better than usual in some Force power(s) Telekinesis for example. I also like the idea of having penalties so a particular Jedi might be worse than their die code for some other power(s). We see a bit of that in the right ups for the Tyia way of the Force. From page 146 of the 2E rules.
Quote:
The Force and The Tyia
The Tyia is an example of an alternate way of knowing the Force, as shown on the Alien Student of the Force character template.
Tyia teaches that individual Introspection is the way to learn the true way of the universe — students are taught to control their own personal Force (called Tyia) through meditation and ceremony. Because of the unique way in which Tyia studies tfie Force, there are some special rules regarding its use.
• When a character with Tyia learns control they automatically learn hibernation trance and emptiness (which is Easy difficulty for Tyia). The character can learn an additional three control powers.
• All alter powers have their difficulty increased hy one level. All powers have minimum time to use of one minute.


garhkal wrote:
Yup. Though one CAN start play as a NON-force sensitive (or force sensitive but not a force user) and learn that IN game, thus not being penalized by the 1-3D drop in attributes and loss of starting skill D for other skills.. BUT its a rare PC i have seen Go that route..
I think you meant to say that a character could start out as Force Sensitive but not as a Force user and then learn Force skills in game and thus avoid losing dice.

If the character is actually non-Force Sensitive to start with then they have to both act in a certain way prior to becoming Force Sensitive and pay 20 character points.

Quote:
Some characters have “No” entered into this line. The character cannot be Force-sensitive at the beginning of the game because of his outlook and behavior. During the course of the game, the character may change his mannerisms and become Force-sensitive. (page 12 of 2E rules)

Quote:
Force-Sensitive
A character who is not Force-sensitive may choose to become Force-sensitive for 20 Character Points. The character receives one extra Force Point immediately, and must now play under the guidelines for Force-sensitive characters.
It is much easier to begin with a Force-sensitive character, rather than choose to make him Force-sensitive after play has begun. When a character becomes Force-sensitive, they simply are suddenly in tune with the Force's mystic ways.
If the gamemastcr feels that the player has been playing a character very closely to the Jedi code, he may choose to give the character Force-sensitivity at a reduced price, but this is always at the garnemaster’s discretion.
Once a character becomes Force-sensitive, they must remain Force-sensitive. A character cannot “lose" their sensitivity. (page 15 of 2E rules)


To make it less of a numerical/mechanical advantage to add Force skills in play rather than to start with Force skills I use a house rule that charges a pretty hefty character point cost for learning Force skills after character creation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On the other hand I like the idea and option of allowing certain specializations or advanced skills under the Force skills so that a particular Jedi might specialize or be better than usual in some Force power(s) Telekinesis for example. I also like the idea of having penalties so a particular Jedi might be worse than their die code for some other power(s). We see a bit of that in the right ups for the Tyia way of the Force. From page 146 of the 2E rules.


That's kind of how they went with the witches of Dathomir.. made each force 'powre' into having its own die code..

Quote:

I think you meant to say that a character could start out as Force Sensitive but not as a Force user and then learn Force skills in game and thus avoid losing dice.


Both actually. I've known 3 players over the years who routinely start out as NFS, and progress to FS in game, thought its rare they then progress to FU status..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
That's kind of how they went with the witches of Dathomir.. made each force 'powre' into having its own die code.

Every power would be too much book keeping for me.

garhkal wrote:
Quote:

I think you meant to say that a character could start out as Force Sensitive but not as a Force user and then learn Force skills in game and thus avoid losing dice.


Both actually. I've known 3 players over the years who routinely start out as NFS, and progress to FS in game, thought its rare they then progress to FU status..
Huh. That's a progression I haven't seen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its more been a progression of them. Starting out immoral, realizing the errors of their ways, becoming more moral (purchasing force sensitivity later on), and so on..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Its more been a progression of them. Starting out immoral, realizing the errors of their ways, becoming more moral (purchasing force sensitivity later on), and so on..
Lately (not in Star Wars) the progression for my player's PCs has gone the other way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> First Edition and IAG All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 4 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0