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Duros 2.0 (and a poll!)
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Which version of Starship Intuition best fits Duros?
v1.00 as presented in WEG's GG4
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
v2.00 excellent pilot/navigators, well traveled through the galaxy
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
v2.01 excellent pilot/navigators+
66%
 66%  [ 6 ]
v2.02 excellent pilot/navigators
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 9

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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:

Which, TBH, I think a lot of old-school games need. "Humans are average" and "humans can do anything" don't mean a lot when everyone can do everything, or even when humans, who might have the potential to do everything, will be consistently outshone at whatever they choose to do.


Maybe DM's are not pushing the whole 'anti-alien racism inherent in the rise of the empire days'.?
If the party needs to sneak into an imperial installation, an all human team would have a HELL of a lot easier time of it than ones with aliens in.. Especially if those aliens are 'slave or interdicted' races..


It's one of those "We balanced mechanical benefits with unnumerated mechanical disadvantages." And it doesn't apply if you're playing outside of the Empire era. KOTOR era? There's no imperial bias towards humans.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Since the 90s I've had the problem of players almost never wanting to play humans, which is sad for me because it really limits story possibilities within the Empire. Who doesn't love the whole 'pose as Imperials' bit? I have ran many adventures with the whole PC group as aliens. I certainly do have degrees of anti-alien discrimination in my game.


Then why not KEEP the adventure you had planned, and make THEM figure out "Gee why are we having so much problem cause weez be all alienz.."

Just like i do in adnd.. If the adventure i have planned involves lots of undead, and the party decides to NOT have any clerics, i won't all of a sudden remove the undead..
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Then why not KEEP the adventure you had planned, and make THEM figure out "Gee why are we having so much problem cause weez be all alienz.."

Just like i do in adnd.. If the adventure i have planned involves lots of undead, and the party decides to NOT have any clerics, i won't all of a sudden remove the undead..

I have kept the adventure I had planned when the PC group had one Human PC and the player didn't make it. But if there are no humans in the whole campaign, I don't plan for adventures that absolutely require humans because I know in advance there won't be any and I'm not an evil GM.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, Whill, I have been rping for over 25 years, and have--without exception--always played a human,deslite the fact that they can't see in the dark or can't climb a tree or fly or resist magical effects or use special species-only items or whatever.
Its true: whatever a human-player concieves as a concept, there is always a species that does that specific thing better.

I would have a FIELD DAY with your house rules, TBH...

FWIW, I think your system also addresses the "slow start" problem that I see ina lot of games. Ideally, I feellike a character CONCEPT should come to life on turn 1 of game 1. An additional 4D of dice helps a lot, though I do see one potential double-edged sword: Human PCs MUST put 2D+1 into each attribute, thereby limiting what is available for their conceptually more important attributes. Effectively, they end up putting 2D or the 18 into "dump stats." Then again, if you like to encourage well roundedness, this is one way to moderate that (and it exemplifies "humans" at the same time).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Human PCs MUST put 2D+1 into each attribute, thereby limiting what is available for their conceptually more important attributes.

Where do you get that from? 2D+1 is human average attribute, but not the human minimum attribute.

And I actually lowered the human minumum to 1D, so human attribute range for NPCs is 1D to 4D+1. Being a math nerd, I can't tolerate a minimum and an average being the same value, for any species.

I do have a general PC minimum attribute of 2D for any species, but it still allows human PCs to be (slightly) under average in an attribute.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I see, I see. You said "human average" in the context of D6 Star Wars, which has historically been synonomous with human minimum. So that's where I got that from.
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Ah, I see, I see. You said "human average" in the context of D6 Star Wars, which has historically been synonomous with human minimum. So that's where I got that from.

RAW is historically stupid by having the the minimum attribute value equal to the average value (2D). So my mods regarding human attributes are (1) reducing the species minimum to 1D, (2) slightly bumping the average human attribute up to 2D+1, and (3) increasing the human maximum to 4D+1. My game is still based on 2D being the general sentient average attribute and my mods to humans reflect how humans are described as so uber.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Human PCs MUST put 2D+1 into each attribute, thereby limiting what is available for their conceptually more important attributes.

Where do you get that from? 2D+1 is human average attribute, but not the human minimum attribute..


Actually in the RAW, 2d IS the min attribute value for a human..
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Actually in the RAW, 2d IS the min attribute value for a human..
It is for human PCs. But for NPCs that is not the case. Take a look at the Rebel Sourcebook, the Spec Force Guide, the Imperial Sourcebook, or even the basic rules.

page 209 of the Rules 2ER&E

Quote:
Typical Rebel Alliance Soldier. All stats are 1D+2 except:
Dexterity 3D+2, blaster 5D+2, grenade 4D+2, Knowledge 1D,
Strength 3D, brawling 4D, Technical 1D+2, demolitions 2D+2.
Move: 10. Blaster pistol (4D), grenades (5D),
macrobinoculars (+1D to search greater than 50
meters), comlink, blast vest (+1D physical, +1 energy).
Emphasis added. It is clear from the NPC character examples that 1D is the human minimum stat.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:01 am    Post subject: Re: Duros 2.0 (and a poll!) Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Listed under Special Abilities you will four versions of Starship Intuition. Be sure to take the poll, but don't stop there, I really want to hear the opinions of the community as to which version is best fit and why or why not.
Personally I'd match the mechanics to the fluff and go with none of the above. What it should say should relate to piloting and astrogation only. Here's what I'd use.

Quote:
b]Special Abilities v1.0:[/b]
--► Starship Intuition: Duros are, by their nature, extremely skilled starship pilots and navigators. When a Duros character is generated, 1D (no more) may be placed in the following skills, for which the character receives 2D of ability: archaic starship piloting, astrogation, space transports, and starfighter piloting. At character creation no more than 2D may be placed into a skill.


I don't see the need to make the list long since the Duro is only doubling 1D.

    Pick the astrogation or piloting skill of choice.
    Get 2D for 1D expenditure.
    Now put your other 6D that you have left wherever you want (template and GM allowing).
    Done.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The films show that Humans are the dominant species of the galaxy, and a lot of EU and canon fluff about Humans always describes them as so uber, so I beefed up their stats to better reflect this. So I keep the standard of 2D attributes as a galactic average of sentient species but have no example species. In my game Humans have a 2D+1 average for all attributes which makes them a 14D species (as typical attribute total) instead of 12D, and I bumped the Human max attribute to 4D+1. D6 Space (WEG SW RPG 3e minus SW IP) made Human attribute max 5D but that is going too far for me.
Whill wrote:
And I actually lowered the human minumum to 1D, so human attribute range for NPCs is 1D to 4D+1. Being a math nerd, I can't tolerate a minimum and an average being the same value, for any species.

I do have a general PC minimum attribute of 2D for any species.

These were above in the thread.

Whill wrote:
RAW is historically stupid by having the the minimum attribute value equal to the average value (2D). So my mods regarding human attributes are (1) reducing the species minimum to 1D, (2) slightly bumping the average human attribute up to 2D+1, and (3) increasing the human maximum to 4D+1. My game is still based on 2D being the general sentient average attribute and my mods to humans reflect how humans are described as so uber.

garhkal, this is from the post immediately above yours!

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
2D+1 is human average attribute, but not the human minimum attribute.

Actually in the RAW, 2d IS the min attribute value for a human.

garhkal, I'm noticing a pattern lately that you fail to acknowledge when discussions of house rules and keep trying to superimpose RAW on to people's mods. I don't get it. I've seen you discuss house rules before, and even occasionally tell other people you like them. But when you don't like them you just try to force RAW on it? If you disagree with a mod you can say so, but please cease and desist with trying to "correct" people's mods by ignoring the fact that they are not RAW. Thank you.

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Actually in the RAW, 2d IS the min attribute value for a human..
It is for human PCs. But for NPCs that is not the case. Take a look at the Rebel Sourcebook, the Spec Force Guide, the Imperial Sourcebook, or even the basic rules.

page 209 of the Rules 2ER&E

Quote:
Typical Rebel Alliance Soldier. All stats are 1D+2 except:
Dexterity 3D+2, blaster 5D+2, grenade 4D+2, Knowledge 1D,
Strength 3D, brawling 4D, Technical 1D+2, demolitions 2D+2.
Move: 10. Blaster pistol (4D), grenades (5D),
macrobinoculars (+1D to search greater than 50
meters), comlink, blast vest (+1D physical, +1 energy).
Emphasis added. It is clear from the NPC character examples that 1D is the human minimum stat.

Thank you, Bren. Even though R&E gives 2D as the minimum of the human species attribute ranges, in practice RAW stats out characters with lower than 2D at times.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Thank you, Bren. Even though R&E gives 2D as the minimum of the human species attribute ranges, in practice RAW stats out characters with lower than 2D at times.
Clearly the rules are inconsistent. Crying or Very sad I think what WEG probably meant to say (and what they really should have said) was that...
    1D is the minimum human stat.
    2D is the average human stat.
    2D is the minimum human stat for Player Characters.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
2D+1 is human average attribute, but not the human minimum attribute.

Actually in the RAW, 2d IS the min attribute value for a human.

garhkal, I'm noticing a pattern lately that you fail to acknowledge when discussions of house rules and keep trying to superimpose RAW on to people's mods. I don't get it. I've seen you discuss house rules before, and even occasionally tell other people you like them. But when you don't like them you just try to force RAW on it? If you disagree with a mod you can say so, but please cease and desist with trying to "correct" people's mods by ignoring the fact that they are not RAW. Thank you.
.

I wasn't saying YOUR house rule part was what i saw an issue with, but trying to correct your commend of "2d is human average not minimum", when it is. Even if its for people making characters.

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
Thank you, Bren. Even though R&E gives 2D as the minimum of the human species attribute ranges, in practice RAW stats out characters with lower than 2D at times.
Clearly the rules are inconsistent. Crying or Very sad I think what WEG probably meant to say (and what they really should have said) was that...
    1D is the minimum human stat.
    2D is the average human stat.
    2D is the minimum human stat for Player Characters.


Or like we saw in a # of ADND modules and other publications, THEY didn't bother keeping to their OWN rules (like an elf npc in a module that's 4 levels above what elf's racial level limits are, or an incorrect multi-class listing for an npc in the rogue's gallery)..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Or like we saw in a # of ADND modules and other publications, THEY didn't bother keeping to their OWN rules (like an elf npc in a module that's 4 levels above what elf's racial level limits are, or an incorrect multi-class listing for an npc in the rogue's gallery)..
As an unimportant piece of biographical trivia, I would not be a part of the "we" who saw that. It wouldn't surprise me, but I have little or no first hand knowledge of any D&D modules and I gave away my AD&D rules sometime in the last century. Laughing
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
Thank you, Bren. Even though R&E gives 2D as the minimum of the human species attribute ranges, in practice RAW stats out characters with lower than 2D at times.

Clearly the rules are inconsistent. Crying or Very sad I think what WEG probably meant to say (and what they really should have said) was that...
    1D is the minimum human stat.
    2D is the average human stat.
    2D is the minimum human stat for Player Characters.

Other species do have attribute minimums under 2D so I agree that was most likely the intention of RAW for humans. I do have a PC minimum attribute of 2D, regardless of species mins. On the other end I also have a rule that PCs of any species cannot have more than one attribute above 4D which helps not take too much away from the other attributes. Both of these rules lend to PCs not being too over-focused (attribute wise) and thus helps them be a little more well rounded.

garhkal wrote:
I wasn't saying YOUR house rule part was what i saw an issue with, but trying to correct your commend of "2d is human average not minimum", when it is. Even if its for people making characters.

Two problems. First, you're misquoting me now. I said that 2D+1 is human average and not the minimum. Second, again, I was talking about my rules for my game, which was clear from the context of the conversation. I was not talking about RAW when I said that, so my sentence was correct because it was for my game, which I stated. You cannot "correct" my rules for my game.
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