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Handheld Shields
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Ninja-Bear wrote:
Nice concept Kytross. My question though is what’s the difference between Tay and Particle weapons? Do you have an example?


Ray shields block energy. Particle shields block physical. The exhaust port on the Death Star was only ray shielded, so it was possible to bypass that with a physical object, like a torpedo.

Page 126 of 2E R&E covers the difference between the two in space combat.

CRMcNeill, I felt that making the shield both ray and particle could be over powering. It needs some play testing.


To further reinforce what CRM is saying here, consider this question:

Are these "ray shields" different in nature than the ones in EpIII? Because if not, then Obi-Wan and Anakin (especially Anakin) should have known to just walk right through them.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:


To further reinforce what CRM is saying here, consider this question:

Are these "ray shields" different in nature than the ones in EpIII? Because if not, then Obi-Wan and Anakin (especially Anakin) should have known to just walk right through them.


In Episode 3 Lucas is contradicting himself from what we learned in Star Wars: A New Hope. It is only a line or two of dialogue, but General Dodonna makes the distinction between ray and particle shields clear. It is a vital point to the movie, what with it being the only vulnerability to the Death Star.

I picked up on the dialogue about ray shields in Ep 3 on premiere night and my shouted "WTF!" got everyone in the theatre looking at me. I was much quieter with my other problems with continuity in the film that night.

Personally, I use the explanation from the Lando Books to explain particle shields. It was explained here that shields are integrated with the hull, boosting the hull's resistance. Kind of like what they did in Star Trek Enterprise, polarizing the hull, or whatever the technobabble was.

CRM has mentioned the particle shields being part of the hull before, either in this thread or another. I am not doing the research right now, if you're really interested I can find it later when I have more time.

By extrapolation from what Dodonna said and what we see during the Death Star Trench run, particle shields do not need to travel through the hull. If the Empire could have particle shielded the thermal exhaust port, which is an open space, then particle shields can run over open spaces, outside of the hull. I would argue that when they are outside of a hull, particle shields do nothing to stop laser fire.


I still use ray shields as a reaction skill against laser weaponry. It makes sense to me. In my games, Laser Weapons have the longest range of any space based weaponry, and are by far the most common space based weaponry.

Tractor Beams have roughly half the range of lasers and ion cannons. They are more often on capital ships and I don't see them used in combat in most of my games. Though I do love innovative players.

Most private citizens don't want to drop their particle shields, and lose 2D from their hull code, to use torpedoes and missiles. Combining that with max range of torpedoes being short range for lasers and it is usually suicide to use projectiles, especially in the same scale. So projectiles are rarely used outside of military actions.

So we are left with ion cannon and laser weapons for space combat. I have stated elsewhere on these boards that Starfighter Ion cannons range should read 1-3/7/16, with 16 as the maximum range, not 36. I firmly believe this is a typo, as all the rest of the space weaponry, including other ion cannons, basically doubles from short to medium, and medium to long range except the starfighter ion cannon.

Hence why you have shields to deal directly with Laser Weapons. Wow, that was a long explanation for why I use ray shields. Sorry if I've derailed the thread too much.

On a side note, I will also allow people to improve both their ship's base hull code and their particle shield code, allowing for a maximum hull improvement of 2D+4 or 3D+1.
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Argentsaber
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Kytross wrote:
Ninja-Bear wrote:
Nice concept Kytross. My question though is what’s the difference between Tay and Particle weapons? Do you have an example?


Ray shields block energy. Particle shields block physical. The exhaust port on the Death Star was only ray shielded, so it was possible to bypass that with a physical object, like a torpedo.

Page 126 of 2E R&E covers the difference between the two in space combat.

CRMcNeill, I felt that making the shield both ray and particle could be over powering. It needs some play testing.


To further reinforce what CRM is saying here, consider this question:

Are these "ray shields" different in nature than the ones in EpIII? Because if not, then Obi-Wan and Anakin (especially Anakin) should have known to just walk right through them.


I always thought that particle shields could be channeled through a ray shield in exactly the same way they can be through a ship's hull. Wouldn't that explain the reactor shielding in Phantom Menace as well?

While this might at first look like a contradiction due to the Death Star's exhaust port not being particle shielded when it easily could be.. I think if it were the exhaust wouldn't be able to escape.. something you really want if your reactor is so big I would think.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the first film, Ray Shields are only mentioned once, during the Dodonna briefing. On both the Millennium Falcon and the X-Wings and Y-Wings during the Battle of Yavin, they are specifically called Deflectors or Deflector Screens. It's unfortunate but not surprising that WEG misused terminology, then used the inference to make an odd in-game ruling.

My take has long been that what WEG called Particle Shields are actually Navigation Shields, generated in close to the Hull as a defense against radiation, micro-meteorites and such, which also provides limited protection against attacks.

Deflectors, on the other hand, are projected out a meter or so from the ship's Hull, and provide similar protection against all forms of damage. In addition, their distance from the Hull allows them to be angled against attacks, so as to provide added protection based on how well the shield operator rolls his Starship Shields skill. IMO, this is what Chewie was doing during the escape from the Death Star in ANH, angling the Falcon's deflectors against the TIE Fighters' strafing runs so as to maximize their deflective properties.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since handheld shields came up elsewhere, let's continue the conversation in a more appropriate venue.

Mostly, I've been thinking of stuff that might make Shield Gauntlets more interesting, like:
    -Allow the Gauntlet to change the size of the Shield (thus increasing Cover) at the expense of base Strength, with something the size of a Tower Shield providing Full Cover at one extreme, and something Buckler-sized at the other (provides essentially no Cover, but much more durable against things like Lightsabers).

    -Allow the Gauntlet to be usable as a Melee Weapon, either with a shield bash or a shield rim strike, maybe with the rim inflicting energy damage similar to a lightsaber.

    -Or just make the Shield Gauntlet a handheld Ray Shield projector, that actually damages physical objects that come into contact with it.

    -Allowing the Gauntlet to launch a disc-shaped energy blast in lieu of projecting a shield, effectively a shield-throw ala Captain America.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting question. I just rewatched the Solo train heist scene to brush up on Enfys Nest's fan-shield gauntlet; I forgot she had one on each arm. Usually, we picture a hand-held shield in singular terms - you only get one, with a weapon held in the other. So how would you handle two wearable shields combining to provide more cover?
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Here's an interesting question. I just rewatched the Solo train heist scene to brush up on Enfys Nest's fan-shield gauntlet; I forgot she had one on each arm. Usually, we picture a hand-held shield in singular terms - you only get one, with a weapon held in the other. So how would you handle two wearable shields combining to provide more cover?


In my mandalorian write-up I have a piece of tech for gauntlets:

Energy Shield
Creates a disk of energy that can reflect
incoming energy weapons.
Provides an extra +1D6 cover against energy weapons.
Can use brawl or melee parry against lightsabers.
Dex penalty: 2
Cost: 15,000cr.

I handle it as an extra 1D6 when taking advantage of cover** (even if the gauntlet is the only cover)

If a character had two of them and were using both, I would allow them a 2D6.

There would be no difference in rolls to parry, since I don't add any extra dice when someone is parrying in regular hand to hand combat, even though they have (typically!) two arms to use.

**My own system for taking cover differs drastically from RAW.
But if I were using RAW cover rules, I'd probably keep the +1D6 to cover and +2D6 for two.

Now it's worth noting that I picture these things as the small little energy discs as seen in the Animate Clone Wars, used by Dengar.
Larger shields would provide larger bonuses I would think.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Here's an interesting question. I just rewatched the Solo train heist scene to brush up on Enfys Nest's fan-shield gauntlet; I forgot she had one on each arm. Usually, we picture a hand-held shield in singular terms - you only get one, with a weapon held in the other. So how would you handle two wearable shields combining to provide more cover?


I'd lean towards just increasing the die code from cover... a regular shield might cover 1/4-1/2, but two shields would be 1/2-3/4.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
So how would you handle two wearable shields combining to provide more cover?

By changing 1/4 cover to 1/2 cover and giving an appropriate bonus (to parry roll of course)?

These gauntlets were made of beskar so basically impervious to blaster fire.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going from 1/4 Cover to 1/2 is pretty much what I was thinking, too, and it's consistent with my own interpretation of Scale/Coordination.

Under my current interpretation of Dodge, though, I'd probably count the Cover modifier as a bonus to Parry in Brawling Melee, but purely as 50% Cover against blaster fire.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
So how would you handle two wearable shields combining to provide more cover?

By changing 1/4 cover to 1/2 cover and giving an appropriate bonus (to parry roll of course)?

These gauntlets were made of beskar so basically impervious to blaster fire.


FWIW, I have a couple articles on that:

Looking at the Holocron, I came up with this for Mandalorian Armor. "Standard" material Mando armor is 2D/1D. Beskar is 4D/3D (based on Jango and Boba Fett's armor).

I also did some work on what I call "Bulwarks" (to make them distinct from Shields, the spaceship equipment). I didn't include an energy option, but the underlying mechanics were drawn from d6 Fantasy, IIRC.

A small bulwark keeps your Melee parry value the same as without a bulwark (-1D for multiple actions, +1D for the bulwark), but penalizes your attack (-1D for multiple actions). It also provides cover from blasters, though, and some additional damage resistance.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly off-topic, but I can't help but think there should be a point where any energy field used as protection, be it a shield or a lightsaber, should have a breaking point at which the shield is at least temporarily overloaded, just like a physical defense can be damaged to the point where it's destroyed. Energy-based systems may have the advantage of being able to recharge very quickly (say, by the beginning of the next round), but their power shouldn't be unlimited. And that includes lightsabers. I'm not quite sure how this would be achieved, but I'd like to hear if you have any ideas.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Slightly off-topic, but I can't help but think there should be a point where any energy field used as protection, be it a shield or a lightsaber, should have a breaking point at which the shield is at least temporarily overloaded, just like a physical defense can be damaged to the point where it's destroyed. Energy-based systems may have the advantage of being able to recharge very quickly (say, by the beginning of the next round), but their power shouldn't be unlimited. And that includes lightsabers. I'm not quite sure how this would be achieved, but I'd like to hear if you have any ideas.


Wouldn't the simple method be to give the shield a body strength rating? Let it completely heal after a certain amount of time, but until then, it gets damaged like any protection?

So, your Gungan energy bulwark has a 3D rating. Against a blaster pistol (4D), your bulwark is going to usually wind up taking light damage (avg. 10.5 v. 14; 3 points is "not significant", 4 is "light damage")... but lightly damaged is -4D to the damage code, so you take nothing. Use either the highest damage or add 1 to the damage level each time... so, if Lightly Damaged then Lightly Damaged, your bulwark is Heavily Damaged. If Lightly Damaged then Severely Damaged, it is Severely Damaged, skipping Heavily but not getting any worse for being Lightly. This would work for both physical and energy shields... energy shields would just get replenished... maybe using a standard power pack (say, 1 charge to heal 1 level, with 50 charges for a standard power pack).

Bulwarks are thereby useful, but will fall if subjected to too many attacks in a short time.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I toyed with something similar for starship shields, but it gets too math intensive. I'd rather have a Damage Chart for Melee Shields (or just use the generic rules for Damaged Armor), and then a separate chart for Energy Shields to reflect the fact that they can effectively regenerate to full power by the next round unless the generation mechanism is somehow damaged.
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