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Lightsaber Pulse
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Dustflier
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Grenades, Thermal detonators, missiles, all have a LOWER blast radi.. SO why would a force inspired pulse of light, have a bigger blast zone than most of those other things?


To be fair, you can be blinded by a sufficiently bright light at a much greater range than you can be hurt directly by a grenade. A thermal detonator has, what, a 6 meter blast radius? I would imagine a tactical flashlight with thousands of lumens could disorient from a range at least twice that, if not much, much farther.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustflier wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Grenades, Thermal detonators, missiles, all have a LOWER blast radi.. SO why would a force inspired pulse of light, have a bigger blast zone than most of those other things?


To be fair, you can be blinded by a sufficiently bright light at a much greater range than you can be hurt directly by a grenade. A thermal detonator has, what, a 6 meter blast radius? I would imagine a tactical flashlight with thousands of lumens could disorient from a range at least twice that, if not much, much farther.


Most grenades BR goes out to 10 meters. Thermals go out to 20..
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Error
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustflier wrote:
Error wrote:
Why everything on this forum requires thousands of words of explanation, it seems, while the things we see in the movies are not required to be qualified at all, will never cease to amaze me. People care more about the HOW than the COOL here sometimes, and it's really hard to wade through.


I respect the fact that you're going ahead and using this power without worrying about the "how." Star Wars has always been hand-wave-y and this is rule of cool. I get that.

But when something is posted on a forum, the point is to discuss it. It might even seem like responses nitpick certain aspects that you have no interest in, or "miss the point" to get stuck on something only tangentally related. But because everyone comes at things from a different perspective, that's just a reflection of where their focus lies.

I guess what I'm saying is: once you've posted your house rule Force power here, you're inviting other people to argue about whatever details catch their attention.

garhkal is worried about the range making it overpowered. Sutehp doesn't think lightsabers work that way, or would require messing with the crystals, which makes lightsabers explode. Zarn agrees that it would require messing with the crystals, but doesn't think that's such a bad thing. I think it could be achieved by using the Force to drain the powerpack into the blade. You can tell that we all think differently about the same idea, but that's what makes forums like these great.

None of this is lost on me, and I post things anyway knowing people will nitpick them. The problem is that nitpicking isn't a discussion.

Here's the thing that makes no sense to me. Nobody here sits and nitpicks exactly how an interdictor cruiser creates a gravity well. But one house-ruled Force power without a direct explanation of HOW, and people lose their minds. Then they start quoting crap from the EU that has NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand. I do not care what Ahsoka Tano did with her lightsaber crystals. At all. This is Space Opera and technically, nothing needs an explanation.

That said, discussion is indeed the whole point. But people on this forum get hung up so much about the "how" (of a fictional device in a fictional universe, no less) that the discussion gets completely confounded and muddled by it, and useful feedback is completely lost in wordy arguments about crystals and power packs and blah blah blah.

The beauty of Star Wars is that you get to fill in the blanks yourself. Use your imagination, not your analytical intellect. If you use the latter, you're not even going to get past the first space battle scene in Episode IV. "Why are those laser bolts not going the speed of light?" Because Space Opera. And that's the answer to every single question of "how" that could possibly come up in relation to Star Wars in its absolutely entirety.

When I first saw Star Wars as a kid, I didn't need an explanation for precisely how hyperspace works, and I still don't. Getting hung up on technicalities that appear germane to the discussion is the problem. These hangups are actually completely unrelated and have more to do with an individual's need to be right than any actual constructive feedback.

garhkal, for example, actually has no idea whatsoever what is an appropriate range for this power. But he'll argue it anyway because he is completely sure his guess is correct, because a thermal detonator, of all unrelated things, has a blast radius of X or Y.

Also, it's usually lost on people who respond to topics like this that new, house-ruled abilities (such as this one) are rough drafts that need to be playtested. This is not some "final version" that I'm going to use in my games without altering it somewhat eventually. Playtesting is ALWAYS the key to the lock on the door that leads to a yes or a no. Frankly, this power could have a ten kilometer range and still not break the game.

And you know what else? I'm not forcing anyone to use this power in their games. So why bother nitpicking it? If it doesn't affect you at all, and all you have is negative things to say about it or a demand for a technical explanation, you can just as easily forgo hitting the "Post Reply" button and move onto something else.

If you don't like it, don't use it, and don't post a reply unless it's constructive. Very simple.

Addendum: If things keep trending this way, I'm just gonna stop posting things on this forum. I create what I see as cool things to add to my own games, and I post them here because they're cool and I want to share cool things with people who are as passionate about this game as I am. But it seems every time I post something, people have actually made up their minds beforehand to be difficult about it.

I want to keep posting the cool stuff that comes out of my brain here, but I'm so tired of people telling me I'm wrong about this or that, that I don't know if I have much choice anymore. I guess it was my assumption that intelligent gamers are capable of taking a concept at face value that has led to this. I was wrong, and it sucks.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
garhkal, for example, actually has no idea whatsoever what is an appropriate range for this power. But he'll argue it anyway because he is completely sure his guess is correct, because a thermal detonator, of all unrelated things, has a blast radius of X or Y.


True i don't know what is appropriate, but i show the Blast radi of KNOWN things as a means to compare..
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, Error, I started writing a rather nasty rebuttal. I had started to point out the fallacies I found in your arguments, your No True Scotsman approach to the Star Wars d6 game... and then I deleted it all.

I find it perfectly fair that garhkal prefers to start at a known point and extrapolate from there. Others need to have something that approaches a reasonable 'in-universe' explanation before they can decide whether they like something or not.

We all have different tastes as to what makes something have verisimilitude for us or not. I recognize that garhkal is a much more hardcore convention-style GM than what I am, and that he probably is stronger on the ins and outs of Revised and Updated than what I am. I enjoy sparring with garhkal, and though I don't always agree with him, I always value his input.

Some, like me, have English as our second language - or perhaps even further out. For me, that means that I sometimes trip up and react much more strongly to a comment than what is proportional or reasonable. Sometimes I trip up and state something that is taken much more strongly than what I intended.

Ultimately, it is unlikely that we'll ever share a campaign. That means that I tend to decide what is right for my campaign, and it is your privilege to decide likewise for yours. There's no one 'right' approach, because none of us is a GM for any of the others.

Your approach, Error, seems to focus a lot on what is 'right'. That is misdirected, I believe. There is no 'right'. There is, however, 'balanced' against the rest of the system. I've previously pointed out that you seem very defensive when it comes to suggestions as to what you've put together, and that you're loathe to engage in any discussions where one suggests changes to what you've put together. Frankly, I also question your reading comprehension at times, but I've also read board posts where I've skipped part of a response and reacted to that, so I am inclined to forgive the occasional lapse.

I ... have decided that what you think is a free and unconstrained discussion, is incompatible with what I think is a free and unconstrained discussion. As such, this is likely the last time I'll burden you with what I think when it comes to any discussion here.

However, I'll say this: What you decide to do with your creations, is of course completely up to you. Post them here, share them if you will. Try to expand the EU for all of us if you're so inclined. However, don't ask for unconstrained and free comments or discussions if you're not willing to engage in a frank discourse. To my mind, that is at best misguided and at worst even dishonest.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error, I think Zarn's reply is well-stated, but I will riff off of that and try to distill it down further.

Error wrote:
If you don't like it, don't use it, and don't post a reply unless it's constructive. Very simple.

That's simply not the way it works around here. If you post anything at all, your material is subject to criticism. This community is diverse collection of individuals and we each bear witness to our own experience with Star Wars and the RPG. What works for one does not work for the other, but we still can't be a different fan and gamer than who we are. Sometimes we end up inspiring someone else or providing something useful to others. Sometimes challenging views help me as much as supportive ones. Sometimes no one likes my idea, but I still like it anyway. There is no need for consensus. We are all just sharing our thoughts with each other.

Error wrote:
If things keep trending this way, I'm just gonna stop posting things on this forum.

If dissenting replies are going to bother you so much, then it might be best for you to keep your cool ideas to yourself. But keep in mind that this is a public arena. At this moment, I am the currently the only registered user logged into this site but there are 21 "guests". True that some of those could be web spiders or registered users just checking in without logging in, but most of those are probably lurkers who only read and never contribute. You never know if the cool stuff you are sharing might be useful to them. Just food for thought.
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Error
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
You know, Error, I started writing a rather nasty rebuttal. I had started to point out the fallacies I found in your arguments, your No True Scotsman approach to the Star Wars d6 game... and then I deleted it all.

I find it perfectly fair that garhkal prefers to start at a known point and extrapolate from there. Others need to have something that approaches a reasonable 'in-universe' explanation before they can decide whether they like something or not.

We all have different tastes as to what makes something have verisimilitude for us or not. I recognize that garhkal is a much more hardcore convention-style GM than what I am, and that he probably is stronger on the ins and outs of Revised and Updated than what I am. I enjoy sparring with garhkal, and though I don't always agree with him, I always value his input.

Some, like me, have English as our second language - or perhaps even further out. For me, that means that I sometimes trip up and react much more strongly to a comment than what is proportional or reasonable. Sometimes I trip up and state something that is taken much more strongly than what I intended.

Ultimately, it is unlikely that we'll ever share a campaign. That means that I tend to decide what is right for my campaign, and it is your privilege to decide likewise for yours. There's no one 'right' approach, because none of us is a GM for any of the others.

Your approach, Error, seems to focus a lot on what is 'right'. That is misdirected, I believe. There is no 'right'. There is, however, 'balanced' against the rest of the system. I've previously pointed out that you seem very defensive when it comes to suggestions as to what you've put together, and that you're loathe to engage in any discussions where one suggests changes to what you've put together. Frankly, I also question your reading comprehension at times, but I've also read board posts where I've skipped part of a response and reacted to that, so I am inclined to forgive the occasional lapse.

I ... have decided that what you think is a free and unconstrained discussion, is incompatible with what I think is a free and unconstrained discussion. As such, this is likely the last time I'll burden you with what I think when it comes to any discussion here.

However, I'll say this: What you decide to do with your creations, is of course completely up to you. Post them here, share them if you will. Try to expand the EU for all of us if you're so inclined. However, don't ask for unconstrained and free comments or discussions if you're not willing to engage in a frank discourse. To my mind, that is at best misguided and at worst even dishonest.

What disqualifies my replies from being frank discourse? Who says that defending my decisions is somehow not frank discourse when everything that everyone else posts on my thread is? That, sir, is a double standard.

Also, why would you need a nasty rebuttal against my last post? A friendly tone was in my head when I wrote it, I was calm too, reflective even because I wanted to be clear, and I don't insult anyone. However it's fine that someone gets to state that they "question my reading comprehension". Who is getting mad here? Not me. Defending my decisions, even vociferously, does not disqualify my posts from the "discussion" everyone claims is going on.

Of course all discussion is fair. I appreciate you guys, even the ones I argue with. And I do want to continue posting things, I just wish people weren't so concerned with the "how" all the time. I'm more interested in the coolness of things, and in the items' or abilities' statistics being balanced through gameplay. You guys are all smart, you all know deep down that 50m cannot be proven to be a "too large" or "too small" a range until it is subjected to the scientific method, which in this case is playtesting.

From what you guys are telling me, my only recourse is to ignore the rub. Which is not quite fair, but I get the idea and I accept it.

I think I have also isolated another key issue. What I am doing is posting things that have started out as fanfic stuff that I gave stats to after it was created, ostensibly so I could use the items in my games. These weapons and ships and items and everything I post are probably going to make a cameo in a fanfic of mine eventually, and may even have already done so.

You guys are looking at it from only a gaming perspective and that I completely understand because that is the main focus of this forum. This may be part of the friction I feel though. Someone told me a repeating blaster would be better than the repeating slugthrower I designed. So? That's not what I asked, I asked for notes on the original slugthrower, not suggestions of existing weapons, for plot reasons.

I also take issue with the assumption that I focus at all on what is "Right" because there is no right in a fictional universe, as you yourself stated. I focus way more on balance on purpose and it's really weird to me that you came up with that, because that has never been my goal here. That's why I talk about "will this or that break gameplay?" and other similar queries when examining my own ideas.

There is no right, you're correct—only balanced versus nonbalanced within the confines of the existing game. But therein lies my point. Do any of us know, without having tested it, if 50m is too far a range for this power? No, you can't just look at it and know that, like garhkal does. It must be tested.

Also, and I'll reiterate again this because it keeps seeming to fall on deaf ears, nothing I post here is final even in my own games until IT. IS. TESTED. I have to admit it does make me pissed off when people forget that. They keep assuming it's some kind of final copy. Instead of "Hey, that range looks a bit overpowered...try X and test it out with your playgroup," I instead basically get "This item is wrong, every aspect of is wrong, it's not balanced, it's unfair, how does it work, why won't you explain why it works, this other unrelated item does it better and you should use it instead," ad nauseam.

You are right about one thing though. My definition of a constructive discussion is indeed at odds with the types of discussions that happen here.

Zarn, I don't want to drive you away because your input is intelligent and non-belligerent. But I understand if my defense of my creations has driven you to no longer have any patience for it. But I do beg you to reconsider.


Whill wrote:
Error, I think Zarn's reply is well-stated, but I will riff off of that and try to distill it down further.

Error wrote:
If you don't like it, don't use it, and don't post a reply unless it's constructive. Very simple.

That's simply not the way it works around here. If you post anything at all, your material is subject to criticism. This community is diverse collection of individuals and we each bear witness to our own experience with Star Wars and the RPG. What works for one does not work for the other, but we still can't be a different fan and gamer than who we are. Sometimes we end up inspiring someone else or providing something useful to others. Sometimes challenging views help me as much as supportive ones. Sometimes no one likes my idea, but I still like it anyway. There is no need for consensus. We are all just sharing our thoughts with each other.

Thanks for posting this. I guess I really don't care whether someone likes my ideas or not, so why should I react negatively to their criticism? One of those no-brainers that takes someone else to show to you, I guess...

Whill wrote:
Error wrote:
If things keep trending this way, I'm just gonna stop posting things on this forum.

If dissenting replies are going to bother you so much, then it might be best for you to keep your cool ideas to yourself. But keep in mind that this is a public arena. At this moment, I am the currently the only registered user logged into this site but there are 21 "guests". True that some of those could be web spiders or registered users just checking in without logging in, but most of those are probably lurkers who only read and never contribute. You never know if the cool stuff you are sharing might be useful to them. Just food for thought.

So what I'm taking away from this is that if I post here, expect people to criticize. That's fine, I can work with that. I guess I have a WAY different version in my mind of what is a constructive discussion and what is not.

I want to be a respected member of this forum too, and acting like a baby about things isn't going to get that done.
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Last edited by Error on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:13 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the double post, but I didn't want anyone to have to read through everything I posted above just to get down here.

What do others think is a fair range for this power? Should it be a static number or dynamic depending on how advanced the Jedi is? If not, what is a good "max range"? Please remember that enough light can permanently blind people miles away (confer nuclear explosions for more info on that), so a smaller pulse of light could still, in theory, go a long, long way. You can blind someone with a focused Maglite from quite a ways away.

(Keep in mind I'm asking for estimations, as this power still needs to be tested in-game, and is therefore still a work in progress.)
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy way to test it, is to unleash it on your PCs and see if they think its fair..
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be inclined to base it on the skill of the Jedi, and go with something relatively simple...

I'd say it is an Alter power (since you're manipulating something outside yourself), with a moderate difficulty, and works at full strength within 1m. Every meter thereafter, you get a 1D reduction, starting with your highest, non-wild, die... the wild die is always last to go.

So, let's say I have an 11D Alter. I roll 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 11w

So, at 1m, people need to resist 1+1+2+2+3+3+4+4+5+5+11, or 41 (the 11 is the wild die). Screw you, guy I am fighting!

At 2m, they need to resist 36, since we've removed the highest non-wild die.

At 3m, they need to resist 31.
4m, 27
5m, 23
6m, 20
7m, 17
8m, 15
9m, 13
10m, 12
11m, 11.
12m and beyond, they see the flash, but are unaffected by it.

I'd also add that people roll their Control or Perception against this INCLUDING THE USER... so light pulsing your saber can leave you blind, too. Those who are prepared for it (including the user) can shut their eyes and get +2D "armor" against the effect, and other sources might provide protection, as well. I'd also let people take a MAP to protect themselves for an additional 1D.

At low ability, it can remain a useful tool, and it still has an impressive AoE... but it's dangerous to use, and normal people would just carry a flash-bang.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't you guys think the Jedi using this power would have enough common sense to both close his/her eyes and turn his/her head when the pulse goes off?

I'm of the mind that that Jedi would be completely unaffected by his/her own Lightsaber Pulse, to be quite honest. But it sure has the unpleasant side effect of possibly blinding friendlies in a battle situation, which is why I would be very careful about how I'd use it, were I the Jedi with the power.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't you think the enemy if they see the Jedi closing his eyes and turning his head would have the sense to do the same? Thus avoiding the pulse themselves?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Don't you think the enemy if they see the Jedi closing his eyes and turning his head would have the sense to do the same? Thus avoiding the pulse themselves?


So, a perception roll like a Luma Flare to avoid blindness?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for double post.

In my opinion, Droids and other Mechanical persons would be immune, simply because their photorecptors should be able to filter out the blinding light.

Quite simply, a droid can stare at the sun and, in theory, not go blind. Whereas someone with organic eyes would most likely burn out their retinas.

Also, to throw a wet blanket on the power's uses in the Rebellion era. Storm troopers have special polarized lenses to prevent flash blinding. The power would be useless against any and all of the Stormtrooper divisions so long as they had their helmets on.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want us to get too much further off-track (or beat a dead tauntaun), but I wanted to point something out about the following:

Error wrote:
There is no right, you're correct—only balanced versus nonbalanced within the confines of the existing game. But therein lies my point. Do any of us know, without having tested it, if 50m is too far a range for this power? No, you can't just look at it and know that, like garhkal does. It must be tested.


Error, you have a very analytical approach to balancing, and that's probably great for coming up with homebrew powers and such. But saying that something can be judged only on balance/testing seems illogical to me. See, I care less about something being overpowered mechanically, and more about it being both a simple and realistic representation of the Star Wars galaxy. To me, balanced vs. nonbalanced is a nonissue. Star Wars isn't balanced. Everyone may have a role to play (Han isn't waving a lightsaber, while Obi-Wan isn't piloting the freighter), but everyone doesn't have to be equally good at all things.

Instead, my focus lies on continuity and consistency. In those terms, I can perceive something to be "wrong" for Star Wars (such as a gasoline-driven, wheeled land vehicle; or extragalactic space invaders that exist outside the Force). That doesn't mean that others have to agree with me, but it's just as viable a matter of discussion as anything else.

In that vein, regarding matters of the narrative vs. mechanical, I'm a narrativist. For this reason, I typically limit my responses on pure mechanics. The campaign I run has so many homebrewed rules that I don't trust myself any longer to comment on the mechanics of the system as written. But I absolutely can discuss how things in the Star Wars galaxy work, and how consistent a power is in terms of lore and what we know of canon.

So truly we are all here for different reasons (which was the point of my earlier post). Please don't get frustrated when people focus on things you're not interested in, it's just an expression of all of us relating to the same hobby differently.

Error wrote:
Also, and I'll reiterate again this because it keeps seeming to fall on deaf ears, nothing I post here is final even in my own games until IT. IS. TESTED. I have to admit it does make me pissed off when people forget that. They keep assuming it's some kind of final copy. Instead of "Hey, that range looks a bit overpowered...try X and test it out with your playgroup," I instead basically get "This item is wrong, every aspect of is wrong, it's not balanced, it's unfair, how does it work, why won't you explain why it works, this other unrelated item does it better and you should use it instead," ad nauseam.


I genuinely don't understand this. You're saying that no numbers are final, yet are not accepting of others' attempts to dial in the number to something appropriate. No, we didn't playtest it. Apparently, you didn't either. Let us make suggestions and fiddle with the numbers - the more suggestions we accumulate, the closer we'll get to the right numbers without even having to playtest. That's as a result of our collective experience as gamers and testament to the power of crowdsourcing.

Also, for the record, I still like this power. I just also think that the "how" could be discussed without it detracting from the part of the conversation that you do want to have.

Raven Redstar wrote:
So, a perception roll like a Luma Flare to avoid blindness?


Raven Redstar wrote:
In my opinion, Droids and other Mechanical persons would be immune, simply because their photorecptors should be able to filter out the blinding light.


Raven Redstar wrote:
Also, to throw a wet blanket on the power's uses in the Rebellion era. Storm troopers have special polarized lenses to prevent flash blinding. The power would be useless against any and all of the Stormtrooper divisions so long as they had their helmets on.


These stipulations all seem reasonable to me.
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