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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| ForbinProject wrote: | | Dredwulf60 wrote: | | Error wrote: | | You know what else would be sweet? Rail guns. As in character-scale rail guns. No gunpowder, no flash of blaster smoke, just a quiet FOOOMP sound and the projectile is en route, traveling at Mach 7. Plus, rail guns with full-auto capabilities would be absolutely insane. Has anyone tackled them as a concept or attempted to do a write-up on them? As it stands, I think personal-scale railguns are the wave of the future, after the technical issues are dealt with. |
Sorry, after reading the whole thread, this was the thing that jumped out at me and demanded comment.
Rail guns most definitely are not quiet.
When firearms are discharged the muzzle blast makes noise, but it's not really the only noise...the speeding projectile does as well. It's the supersonic bullet travelling through the air that is responsible for the very loud 'crack' noise; a sonic boom.
A rail-gun's projectile, would have no muzzle blast sound, but the travelling faster than sound would create the same very loud 'crack' when travelling through the air. |
Not according to existing weapon descriptions in Star Wars sourcebooks.
Verpine Shatter Gun
The Verpine Shatter Gun is built around a miniature and highly advanced magnetic coil. Miniature alloy projectiles are accelerated through the coils, dramatically increasing their velocity. The result is a virtually soundless weapon that produces kinetic damage far out of proportion to the size of the ammunition being used.
The drawbacks to this remarkable invention are its cost and the delicacy of the weapons components. This specialized weapon is especially vulnerable to breakdown if not handled correctly. Still in the right hands it is a devestatingly powerful weapon with a very long effective range
Model: Verpine Shatter Gun
Type: Magnetic accelerator weapon
Scale: Character
Skill: Firearms: Verpine shatter gun
Ammo: 100
Cost: 30,000, 1,000 (ammo)
Availability: 4, F, R or X
Body: 1D
Range: 50-400/900/1.5 km
Damage: 6D
Game Notes: If the shatter gun is jarred, dropped or otherwise banged in any significant manner, roll damage against the weapon’s body.
Source: Galladinium’s Fantastic Technology (pages 91-92)
And from the Wookipedia
Verpine shatter guns were handheld projectile weapons produced by the Verpine. They ranged in size from small handguns to powerful sniper rifles. The weapon was based on a magnetic field principle, similar to a rail gun. When shot, the weapon would make no sound, but would cause great kinetic damage despite the small caliber pellet it fired. |
Forbin, I think you totally missed Dredwulf's point. What creates the sonic boom are things that move faster than the speed of sound. The Verpine gun details you posted only state that the "weapon was based on a magnetic field principle, similar to a rail gun." That doesn't state that the Verpine projectile travels faster than the speed of sound. Error's post that Dredwulf was replying to says the projectile moves Mach 7, which is seven times the speed of sound! I agree, there is no way that would be quiet. Sure, you could say that the projectile generates a "handwavium sound baffling field" but it's a much easier pill to swallow if the projectile moves less than the speed of sound.
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Zarn
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Joined: 17 Jun 2014
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Zarn on Mon May 13, 2019 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ForbinProject
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Forbin, I think you totally missed Dredwulf's point. What creates the sonic boom are things that move faster than the speed of sound. The Verpine gun details you posted only state that the "weapon was based on a magnetic field principle, similar to a rail gun." That doesn't state that the Verpine projectile travels faster than the speed of sound. Error's post that Dredwulf was replying to says the projectile moves Mach 7, which is seven times the speed of sound! I agree, there is no way that would be quiet. Sure, you could say that the projectile generates a "handwavium sound baffling field" but it's a much easier pill to swallow if the projectile moves less than the speed of sound. |
If you want to nitpick about the phrase "similar" to a rail gun then I'll just point out the...
EMRG-50 Rail Gun
Model: Arachnica EMRG-50 Rail Gun
Type: Electromagnetic rail gun
Scale: Character
Skill: Rail gun
Ammo: 4 shots
Cost: 10,000
Availability: 3, X
Range: 100-1/2/4 km
Damage: 5D
Game Notes: Character must have Strength of 5D to hold the gun due to recoil.
Source: Twin Star of Kira (page 63)
So based on similar stats it seems to me neither fires subsonic ammunition.
As to the mach 7 issue I don't see anything as small as a handheld weapon firing rounds at that velocity. Maybe a vehicle mounted weapon. UNLESS someone is doing a D6 crossover from John Ringo's Legacy of the Aldenata. |
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Error
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Once the technology is sufficiently developed (this is hard to envision because railguns are very, very new in the grand scheme of human history) I have no doubt that they will eventually exist at character scale. The only reason that wouldn't happen is if something better came along, say actual laser guns or another type of projectile weapon which is even simpler and easier to make at character scale.
As for railguns though, they have minimal moving parts; except for the crack of the projectile breaching the sound barrier they're nearly soundless (or would be if we followed the Verpine/EMRG-50 examples, or silence them just like a firearm—there would need to be a nonzero amount of handwavium here, most likely); and the big ones send projectiles flying at Mach 7 (compared to a firearm's 2.X) and probably don't need a whole lot of cleaning.
I really don't see any reason for someone not to develop a set of rules for character-scale railguns. They would probably be similar to slugthrowers, except with higher damage and some other changes. But since we don't have extant character-scale railguns IRL, it's hard to imagine a mock-up.
I've noticed that arguing about emerging human technology in this way is actually a trope around here. I call it "We Don't Have the Technology" and refers to arguing against a concept in the SWU because of its current status IRL.
/2cents
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ForbinProject wrote: | If you want to nitpick about the phrase "similar" to a rail gun then I'll just point out the...
So based on similar stats it seems to me neither fires subsonic ammunition. |
I don't see how you get the speed of either weapon's projectile from the stats, but whatever. I was merely pointing out that Dredwulf's objection to Error's statement was a weapon that fired a projectile going Mach 7 could be quiet, which was the point.
| ForbinProject wrote: | | As to the mach 7 issue I don't see anything as small as a handheld weapon firing rounds at that velocity. |
I don't disagree.
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Error
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I forgot all about the sonic boom. But there wouldn't be the sound of exploding powder like you have with a firearm.
And as for a handheld weapon launching something at Mach 7? Probably not possible IRL. But this is SWD6. Do whatever the hell you want. Make a fictional recoil suppression mechanism out of Jedi bones and cucumber peelings if you like. The SWU is limitless.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | Once the technology is sufficiently developed (this is hard to envision because railguns are very, very new in the grand scheme of human history) I have no doubt that they will eventually exist at character scale. The only reason that wouldn't happen is if something better came along, say actual laser guns or another type of projectile weapon which is even simpler and easier to make at character scale.
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The other issues i see against too many cha scale proper rail guns are power and being missaligned. Such as when the gun gets jostled around.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | Yeah, I forgot all about the sonic boom. But there wouldn't be the sound of exploding powder like you have with a firearm.
And as for a handheld weapon launching something at Mach 7? Probably not possible IRL. But this is SWD6. Do whatever the hell you want. Make a fictional recoil suppression mechanism out of Jedi bones and cucumber peelings if you like. The SWU is limitless. |
Yep.
Every GM is free to do as they like. Everyone has their own style.
I personally like anything featured in MY version of the world to have at least a tenuous explanation. A slight nod if you will in the general direction of some sort of extrapolated 'reality'.
I find that when you give consideration to the how or why something fantastic might work, it might just lead to another idea or an adventure hook.
Like, if i wanted to feature an electromagnetic mass-driver that fired projectiles in absolute silence...I *could* just will it into being.
But if I say to myself: "what if this thing projects an invisible cylinder of energy, not unlike a super feeble deflector shield...and its purpose is to baffle the air molecules. When the weapon fires it travels down this invisible corridor. The crack sound of the air pressure wave is absorbed and muted by this field?"
This then leads me to think...what would this pre-shot field feel like?
I imagine an armored target would be oblivious...but one wearing normal clothes or with exposed flesh might feel a weird sensation...maybe like insects crawling...or something.
it might be like the tactile version of seeing an assassin's laser dot on your chest. Gives you a moment to react before getting shot.
Bam, as a byproduct of thinking out how it works I now have an interesting benefit to NOT wearing armor. Especially if the projectile this thing fires has velocity enough to nearly ignore most armor.
That's just an example of the way I think about adding new stuff.
---
But you also need to be consistent within your own reality. |
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Error
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | | Error wrote: | Yeah, I forgot all about the sonic boom. But there wouldn't be the sound of exploding powder like you have with a firearm.
And as for a handheld weapon launching something at Mach 7? Probably not possible IRL. But this is SWD6. Do whatever the hell you want. Make a fictional recoil suppression mechanism out of Jedi bones and cucumber peelings if you like. The SWU is limitless. |
Yep.
Every GM is free to do as they like. Everyone has their own style.
I personally like anything featured in MY version of the world to have at least a tenuous explanation. A slight nod if you will in the general direction of some sort of extrapolated 'reality'.
I find that when you give consideration to the how or why something fantastic might work, it might just lead to another idea or an adventure hook.
Like, if i wanted to feature an electromagnetic mass-driver that fired projectiles in absolute silence...I *could* just will it into being.
But if I say to myself: "what if this thing projects an invisible cylinder of energy, not unlike a super feeble deflector shield...and its purpose is to baffle the air molecules. When the weapon fires it travels down this invisible corridor. The crack sound of the air pressure wave is absorbed and muted by this field?"
This then leads me to think...what would this pre-shot field feel like?
I imagine an armored target would be oblivious...but one wearing normal clothes or with exposed flesh might feel a weird sensation...maybe like insects crawling...or something.
it might be like the tactile version of seeing an assassin's laser dot on your chest. Gives you a moment to react before getting shot.
Bam, as a byproduct of thinking out how it works I now have an interesting benefit to NOT wearing armor. Especially if the projectile this thing fires has velocity enough to nearly ignore most armor.
That's just an example of the way I think about adding new stuff.
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But you also need to be consistent within your own reality. |
We're actually not that far off in our thinking when it comes to the things you mentioned, especially the methods by which we come up with new items/ships/Jedi powers/whatever. A tenuous description of "why" or "how" is perfectly fine by me for the stuff in my own games, but once someone demands it go beyond a "tenuous" explanation into a "pedantic" or "scientifically accurate" one, I have problems.
One thing I consider when coming up with new ideas is that the SWU was given to us in 1977 to enjoy completely sans explanation. There was no explanation of why hyperspace ignores relativity, how a lightsaber works, why dozens of alien species all seem to breathe oxygen, nothing. They're just like, "Here it is!" and no description was required. Disbelief was automatically suspended. Any descriptions of "how" were installed by WEG in the late 1980's when this game was being produced.
But if you were going to actually introduce the weapon you mentioned above, if you posted it here on this forum it'd be all:
Why a corridor and not a cone?
Why does it feel like crawling ants?
Exactly how thick would clothing need to be to interfere with the sensation?
Would that only be against humans?
How does this invisible cylinder of energy work?
How is it emitted?
Does it drain a powerpack?
How fast does the projectile lose velocity?
How big is the weapon? Because it would have to be X big, etc...
How could a sound be 'muted' by this cylinder of energy?
Can people see this cylinder?
If yes, from how far away?
Can someone with enhanced eyes or a high-tech helmet see it then?
If so, wouldn't they get a bonus to their Dodge skill against it?
How could anything be a 'super feeble deflector shield'?
Don't you think that range is too high?
Don't you think that range is too low?
What is the recoil like, because it'd be huge IRL?
...etc. etc. etc. until you're like damn, I really had no idea I needed to qualify my stuff so thoroughly here...
What you were saying about the corridor of air is exactly what I'm referring to when I say stuff like "Even though IRL a handheld railgun would never be able to fire something at Mach 7, I have made up this in-game reason for why it works." (The fictional recoil suppressor I mentioned pertains to this.) Some folks just don't get the concept and lose their sh*t when you say something is possible in your game when they don't think it should be possible in theirs. It's completely outside the realm of the Star Wars spirit, IMO. But enough negativity on my part.
None of this means, however, that I can just fiat whatever I want into the game. It has to be both cool and relatively balanced. I've seen multi-page arguments over one pip of damage on this forum that would make a lawyer proud. And I'm like...who am I dealing with here? Is it the same neckbeards I left at the gaming store? Lol.
Consistency is indeed the key. As long as your creative stuff matches up with your other creative stuff, your players like it, and the items don't break the game, I say get down witcha bad self 
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Zarn
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Zarn on Mon May 13, 2019 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Error
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarn wrote: | | Because it would be an ionizing... |
Well that sure saves Dredwulf60 a lot of headaches!
Do you think you could answer a similar amount of questions for every known object in the SWU? Would you want to? I mean, I'm not gonna write up any questions, but it seems like you put an awful lot of effort into demonstrating that it could be done 
I'm -generally- not willing to put a whole lot more thought into how an item I make for this game works than I did for the thoroughly unexplained items in the movies. But you are, and if that's your thing, you rock.
I think my imagination allows me to suspend disbelief a lot easier than the intelligent and irrefragable people who attend to these threads. I am also skilled at prioritizing...if you know what I mean.
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Whill
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Error
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Oh come on, that was hardly an interrogation  A proper Internet Forum Interrogation would have him:
- Defending each of his answers to a different person, who would each raise 1D+1 objections for each question (basically, he'd be re-answering each one of them in different words);
- Clarifying precisely what he meant by (1D/2 [rounded down]) words per sentence;
- Then, there'd be a 50% chance of any given answer being insufficient for someone and he would have to answer a further 1D objections per question for a third time.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | | Oh come on, that was hardly an interrogation |
Wait, wait, wait... Did Error somehow become the Pit's resident ISB Agent...and I missed it??? 
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Nice, Zarn....Nice.
I was going to say;
Answering a bunch of questions is exactly why I would come here with something like that;
Because I'd rather the community ask and make me think about it more and come up with the answers ahead of time, then have my players ask during the game and I have to pull something out of the blue...or just tell them 'it doesn't matter' or 'it's irrelevant' or 'your characters wouldn't know anyway'...which I don't really like.
It makes me feel...I dunno....something like how a plot hole must feel...it it were a person.
But even better is to have helpful suggestions in answering or developing something...which Zarn has demonstrated in spades.
No one likes a negative nancy telling you about how it all won't work....but even those people make you consider and re-consider and maybe adjust your approach.
The Star Wars community has been making up stuff...and fluff... to make the weirdness of Star Wars (especially the EU) fit together since the beginning. WEG D6 RPGers are no exception.
And for every solution, you can bet there is at least someone out there that thinks it's garbage. |
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