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Gray Jedi
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crazydanny1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Gray Jedi Reply with quote

If I'm opening up a can of old worms, I apologize...

Okay, so hears my quandry: I've recently started a Fringe campaign that's going to focus a lot on the underworld of the galaxy. But there are elements of the Force in my campaign that are going to play a pivotal roll.

I've used the Jedi and Sith enough in the past that I want to try something new and go with a minor Force-user group that isn't alligned with the Jedi. I want a middle ground that will provide great character development and still keep the game in check as the rules were written.

With the Gray Jedi idea, I'm leaning towards a group of individuals that act more as moral guardians without the Jedi code constraints. Yes, I'm of the mind to allow Dark side powers to be used, but the circumstances have to be right and I have to have the right mechanics in place to cover my a**.

With the new info from Rebels, I'm really leaning towards the Bendu thought of being in a middle ground. Using the Force is a principle of how and why you are using it, and what's the end point of why a character is doing something. The Sith drive the idea of conquering the Force, making it submissive to their will, while the Jedi seek to be tools of the Force, passive in using it.

Anyone have any ideas or mechanics they've used?
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Phalanks Balas
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazydanny1,
You know, jedi code is just an explanation of how you use the Force without falling in the dark side.
The dark side path is the same for all Force users (even if they aren't jedi member).
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The big issues with grey type jedi, is how/why on the dark side power use that they don't TURN to the darkside.. IF the are using the same powers that sith etc use that corrupts them, what is it that is special about these 'Grey' jedi that allows them to remain uncorrupted?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may have characters be aligned with some sect of Jal Shey or Zeison Sha or an equivalent (there are others). There have been a lot of different ways of using the Force. Just look at the Nightsisters or the Celestials. The Jedi and the Sith are comparatively recent additions to the list. I am sure there are other interesting Force traditions out there that I don't know of.

Gray Jedi are hard to play with WEG SWD6 because you rack up Dark Side Points easily since you call on both the light and the dark sides, and then once you have enough, you become a GM character or are consumed by the Dark Side and you die.

You would have to make rules for Gray Jedi which circumvent these things, I suppose.

A character can also just be a light side Jedi who doesn't want to have anything to do with the Order. Those exist too I believe. Ahsoka Tano comes to mind and other "rebels" who exiled themselves from the Jedi Order but did not fall into evil ways.
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crazydanny1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
The big issues with grey type jedi, is how/why on the dark side power use that they don't TURN to the darkside.. IF the are using the same powers that sith etc use that corrupts them, what is it that is special about these 'Grey' jedi that allows them to remain uncorrupted?


Going strictly by the rules, yes, using a Dark side or corruption of the Force type power causes a Dark side point. I agree with the rules. I also think, imo, that you can argue about the use of Injure/Kill and Telekinetic Kill that if used right, you can justify it. I'm not saying I agree fully, but...

We know that the Dark side users tend to be about emotional use of the Force. This is just a thought, here- What if a character had trained himself to be a constant, logic minded individual that didn't use emotion to influence his harnessing of the Force. The character was more concerned with the Unifying Force and the destiny of everything, rather than personal gain or protecting someone or a group of someones.

I'm in full agreement that the Sith powers are corruptions and are absolutely a no-no. Learn a Sith power and use it.. Bam... Dark side point! The list of powers that give Dark side points and that aren't Sith disciplines is short, though...

I was considering a rule set specifically for a Gray. A Gray character would have to be steadfast and logical. They'd have to be able to walk a tight line between Light and Dark. Maybe they have to have a certain balance of Dark side points in order to maintain their mindset. I was also considering Willpower being a strong factor in this. Failed Willpower rolls cause an emotional lapse and result in a Dark side point if using select powers that would normally give a DSP.

Thoughts?
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Xain Arke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me preface this by saying that I think creating a 'Grey Jedi' is usually just an excuse for a player to have all the kewl powers of the Dark Side with none of the penalties.

That said, the simplest way to run this kind of campaign is to do away with the automatic Dark Side Points for powers and instead give them for the intent or attitude of the character when using said powers. It takes more work from the GM and generally a group of trusted players, but will give you a slightly more 'Grey' feel without piling extra rules on top of the existing ones.

Just my take though

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit, running a campaign of Grey Jedi is intriguing; having a group of "betweener" Jedi with the attitude similar to that of the Bendu in Rebels would be interesting. Always referring to the Force as the Ashla and the Dark Side as the Bogan is a detail I would find appropriate to such a campaign to highlight the difference in ideology from the Jedi.

I have no idea how you could get away with simulating Grey Jedi in the D6 Star Wars system, but the idea has alot of appeal.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazydanny1 wrote:

We know that the Dark side users tend to be about emotional use of the Force. This is just a thought, here- What if a character had trained himself to be a constant, logic minded individual that didn't use emotion to influence his harnessing of the Force. The character was more concerned with the Unifying Force and the destiny of everything, rather than personal gain or protecting someone or a group of someones.


But if he's purely logical, why would he even be able to harness many OF those sith (DSP giving) powers since they DO seem to need the force user to tap into his emotions (anger especially).

crazydanny1 wrote:

Maybe they have to have a certain balance of Dark side points in order to maintain their mindset. I was also considering Willpower being a strong factor in this. Failed Willpower rolls cause an emotional lapse and result in a Dark side point if using select powers that would normally give a DSP.

Thoughts?


Sparks does have an order similar to that, known as the Cryoshock brotherhood. You need to maintain a balance between your # of LSPs and DSPS.. So if you are at 5 force points, you need to also have 5 DSPs to be in balance. If you are down to only 3 DSPs (or 7) you are 'out of balance' and roll the d6 in a similar fashion.
So either you need to waste/burn off some Force points to get back in balance, OR rack up 2 more DSPs.. (or if you were up to 7 DSPs, do something heroic to GAIN 2 more force points)..
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dislike the concept of grey jedi immensely... Force-Users who don't follow the Jedi code? Sure. Rogue Jedi who have strayed from the code forwhatever reason? Sure. Various traditions, Jedi-influenced or not, that embrace emotion while understanding the allure of the Dark Side and avoiding it. No problem. IMO, you see some good examples of that in the KotOR series, where your characters can love and feel passion, even hatred and anger, without completely giving in to them.

But the term "grey jedi" always rubbed me the wrong way.

The Jedi code is designed to help avoid falling to the Dark Side. Using the Force from dark emotional places can lead to the dark side, but so, too, I think, can using it in a completely detached way... a way that says "Well, it's acceptable to use Force Lightning on this guy, because he's a bad guy. I don't hate him, but it's the most efficient way to kill him." In teaching people to act without emotion, the Jedi code insulates people from making rash decisions. In teaching Jedi to avoid attachments, the code seeks to prevent Jedi from becoming emotionally involved in the problems they deal with. But it's not a human philosophy, since we get involved with damn near anything.

Rogue Jedi, like a light-side Revan and Jolee Bindo, go into emotional attachments. They love, they laugh, they don't try to avoid emotion... they just try to avoid letting it color their use of the Force. Which might be your idea for a grey jedi. But, when you get down to it, I think my problem with the idea of a grey jedi is that they view themselves as being between light and dark, while I think there really isn't a place between light and dark in the Force... you are light, or you are dark. Shadowed just means that you've gotten some dark side points. What the Jedi are is an attempt to maintain their light side alignment through asceticism... whereas Rogue Jedi (and other, potential, sects) tend to reject that asceticism, without necessarily turning to darkness.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with an above poster that allowing "Gray Jedi" is just allowing characters to access cool Dark Side powers without any penalty. It says in the rules that if you get enough DSP's that you either become a GM character or die. Ignoring that rule is kind of against the spirit of the game IMO.

The thing is, Star Wars has always been a polarized universe, where the line between good and evil is very well-defined. There aren't very many who float just in the middle when it comes to alignment.

I also want to repeat that Light Side Jedi characters who want nothing to do with the Jedi Order are totally viable character types. You get to use the powers of the Light Side for whatever you want; you are bound by no code. Which is what I think a lot of people who seek to play "Gray Jedi" are really after.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same here. Its like someone in an ADND game who wants all the benefits of playing a Paladin, without any of the issues of Alignment, or codes of honor reigning in what he does..
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Same here. Its like someone in an ADND game who wants all the benefits of playing a Paladin, without any of the issues of Alignment, or codes of honor reigning in what he does..


More like someone wanting to play a Paladin who also has a bunch of cool undead minions.

As I said, though, there's plenty of room for non-Jedi force users, or even ex-Jedi force users who don't abide by the Jedi code, without having to postulate "grey jedi" as a group that can use the force in morally questionable ways without repercussion. In another system, you might even have Jedi who occasionally use the force that way. But the difficulty of removing Dark Side Points, and the relatively low threshold for falling to the Dark Side, means that it's a lot harder to be a Dark-side-using-Light-Sider.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the Jedi Masters I have seen stats for include a number of individuals who knew Force Lightning, Telekinetic Kill, and/or Injure/Kill. Mace Windu, for example, has Injure/Kill. Yoda has Control Mind. Just because we do not see a character use something doesn't mean they don't have it, or that Light Side PC's can't be taught it, whether by Dark Side PC's or even other Light Side PC's with the ability. That means there is this to consider when one is planning a character. There is a line you can toe in Star Wars with DSP's, in a way.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But even learning those DS pwers give you a DSP. SO maybe they 'took one for the team', learned it, thus gaining the DSP, then redeamed themselves over time.. So they could then figure out a way to Counter those powers..
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never liked the idea that if you earn a DSP you roll and tou coukd go to the Darkside with a bad roll. I always allowed 6 DSP then you go to the Darkside. If you allow Gray Jedis (which Im not personally fond of). Also I like the idea of Willpower to resist gaining a DSP. Perhaps each DSP adds a 1D to difficulty? Btw, there aee some powers like Bolt of Hatred that by its very nature, you gain a DSP automatically.
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