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Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (title/speculation)
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve been getting so excited about TLJ—awesome trailer, great potential—but that recent Vanity Fair piece deflated me quite a bit. I don’t know what it is. The casino pictures seem wrong; but that might just be Vanity Fair, and the movie could be fine. The more I see and hear from Mark Hamill, it starts to get kind of depressing, because it’s starting to become hard to imagine him pulling off the character of Luke Skywalker anymore. I dunno. Hoping I’m wrong.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Falconer wrote:
I didn’t like that Vader scene in R1, for what it’s worth. It was something out of a horror film, him just mowing down good guys like sheep. I don’t understand what people enjoy in that. It’s “badass,” so…?

I can't really offer any rational explanation for why I enjoy it so much. All I can do is try to express my feelings from watching it the first time. Despite knowing the Rebels would get away with the plans, in the theater I was on the edge of my seat. Hurry! Vader's coming! Get the door open! Take it! It just had such a sense of urgency. And it was the first and only lightsaber scene in the film so it was much cooler than anything ever in a horror film. I don't know why it worked, but it does. I don't even like horror films but I almost never watch them so maybe this type of scene was so effective for me?

But it's not just me. I have encountered mostly only approval of the scene and film. I'm sorry it didn't work for you.


The Vader Mook Horrow Show scene works because it's just so visceral. It also works because it shows just how close the Rebels came to failing to get the Death Star plans and having all the sacrifices made at the Battle of Scarif worthless. Vader was mere seconds away from getting the plans back, and was only thwarted by the Rebel banging at the jammed door realizing he's a dead man and desperately shoves the plans through the crack before Vader kills him. Then the guy who gets the plans shoved into his hands has to abandon his comrades as he's the only one to make it into the Tantive IV while the other Rebels he rushes past sacrifice themselves to give him that last extra second to get aboard. You can practically smell the desperation of the Rebels as they're dealing with this unstoppable dark force that is only barely slowed down by them and cuts through them like a thresher through wheat.

As for Whill mentioning that it's the only lightsaber scene in the movie, that's true, but it's also the only time in the movies that we see Vader use his lightsaber on non-Jedi. That's another reason you know some serious s*** is gonna go down when you see Vader's saber ignite in that darkened corridor. Snap-hiss, vmmmm.... The s*** just got real, yo.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The only time we've seen Vader be a real bad-@$$ is that scene in Rogue One. I, for one, would like to see more of that kind of stuff.

So, yes, I'd vote for a Darth Vader movie set in the Dark Times.

In fact, that should be the title: Dark Times: A Star Wars Story.


We kinda saw that when Anakin went all swordy in the jedi temple AND on mustafar..
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
We kinda saw that when Anakin went all swordy in the jedi temple AND on mustafar..


I don't think so at all.

Those scenes with Anakin were missed opportunities. They didn't effect me in the slightest. In fact, I rolled my eyes at them.

Darth Maul? Now, he's got it. He's a bad-@$$.

Darth Vader in that short scene from Rogue One? He finally showed us what being a Dark Lord of the Sith is all about.

Vader, in Rogue One, is awesome.

Silly Anakin, in the prequels, is...silly.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ROTS scenes of Anakin and the 501st at the Jedi Temple didn't strike me as silly. Far from it, it kept reminding me of how autocracies and dictatorships begin by slaughtering undesirables. When I saw the 501st marching in perfect unison towards the Temple with Anakin in the lead, I thought "This is it; this is the start of the Long Night."

It's not called the Dark Times for nothing.

And in the scene when Anakin is in the Council Chamber with the younglings, when he ignites his lightsaber, I kept thinking of how he was doing all these atrocities for Padme's sake when if Anakin had just stopped for one moment to think about it, he would have realized that Padme would sooner have died than have Anakin slaughter innocent children on her behalf. Love Makes You Evil, indeed. But he was too selfish to stop and think about what Padme would have wanted. It's even lampshaded in the ROTJ novelization.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:
Padme? Are you here? Are you all right? you try to say, but another voice speaks for you, out from the vocabulator that serves you for burned-away lips and tongue and throat.
"Padme? Are you here? Are you all right?"
I'm very sorry, Lord vader. I'm afraid she died. It seems in your anger, you killed her.
This burns hotter than the lava had.
"No...no, it's not possible!"
You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death.
Never.
But you remember...
You remember all of it.
You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader's blood. You remember the furnace of vader's fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth--
And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.
Only you.
You did it.
You killed her.
You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself...
It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith--
Because now your self is all you will ever have.


Granted, I saw the movie before I read this passage in the novelization, but once I read it, it made so much sense because it put into words what I felt as I was watching the end of ROTS.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
The ROTS scenes of Anakin and the 501st at the Jedi Temple didn't strike me as silly. Far from it, it kept reminding me of how autocracies and dictatorships begin by slaughtering undesirables. When I saw the 501st marching in perfect unison towards the Temple with Anakin in the lead, I thought "This is it; this is the start of the Long Night."


I got a little tingle in that scene, with the John Williams music playing, and Anakin leading the way, cloak hood pulled over his head.

But, the scene just didn't pay off for me, much like most of those types of scenes in the prequels. When Anakin took out the Sand People village, it left me saying, "Uh, so what."

And, his whining scene to Amidala didn't help either. "I killed the WOMEN! And the CHILDREN!"

Good grief.

If the scene had been bad @$$, I'd be there emotionally. But, it just sucked.

Just like Mustafar. So what.

The scene with Anakin and the 501st taking out the Jedi Temple SHOULD have been a lot more like this...

DECIEVED

And, that's a game trailer! A commercial for a computer game is better than what George Lucas put on the screen in a major motion picture!

George needs to take some tips from whomever directed that for Bioware.

Compare that awesome scene above to what we got.

THIS.

Then, after showing Order 66, it cut back to Anakin entering the deliberation room where the younglings were hiding, and Anakin igniting his lightsaber.

Pee-yew!

No excitement at all.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, in AOTC, when Anakin came back from slaughtering the Sand People, including the women and children then angsted about it in front of Padme, when I saw her being sympathetic to him, I remember thinking, "Wait a minute, he just slaughtered a camp filled with women and children. Why isn't Padme running away, screaming in horror?"

Needless to say, I wasn't very impressed with that part of the AotC script (not that I was impressed with much else of it). Rolling Eyes Razz

As for the Deceived KOTOR trailer, when those 20 Sith lightsabers lit up at once, my jaw dropped. For any Jedi in the room at that point, that's definitely an Oh Crap moment.

I even found a Star Wars Demotivational poster for that picture. The caption reads "Sith Army: Now would be a good time to think of a Plan B." Truer words were never spoken.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, in AOTC, when Anakin came back from slaughtering the Sand People, including the women and children then angsted about it in front of Padme, when I saw her being sympathetic to him, I remember thinking, "Wait a minute, he just slaughtered a camp filled with women and children. Why isn't Padme running away, screaming in horror?"

Needless to say, I wasn't very impressed with that part of the AotC script (not that I was impressed with much else of it). Rolling Eyes Razz


IMO it's just like irl, where some wives coddle their husband after they come back from deployment and recount some of the horrors they had to perpetrate...
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm definitely not defending the scene, but maybe the Tusken aren't looked at as real people--like the way some Indians were viewed in the old west. They're animals--not people. So what if you kill a few.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, in AOTC, when Anakin came back from slaughtering the Sand People, including the women and children then angsted about it in front of Padme, when I saw her being sympathetic to him, I remember thinking, "Wait a minute, he just slaughtered a camp filled with women and children. Why isn't Padme running away, screaming in horror?"

Needless to say, I wasn't very impressed with that part of the AotC script (not that I was impressed with much else of it). Rolling Eyes Razz


IMO it's just like irl, where some wives coddle their husband after they come back from deployment and recount some of the horrors they had to perpetrate...


I'm not so sure that's analagous, garhkal. At this point, Anakin wasn't on any sort of military deployment (the Clone War hadn't started yet), nor did anyone send him out on a mission to kill the Tuskens. It was him going out on his own (without any of his superior officers telling him to), just to rescue his mother, and when that failed, he lost control and killed a bunch of civilians (say what you like about the adult male Sand People, but the women and children were non-combatants) for nothing more than revenge. No one forced him to perpetrate this horror. I'd hope that any Real Life soldiers who were traumatized by the horrors they may have been forced to do did so only with the greatest reluctance. If (and this is a big If, as it's purely hypothetical) they willingly committed atrocities like what Anakin did to the Tuskens, then that would make them war criminals and unworthy of respect or sympathy. I don't want to belabor the obvious but (as we all know) there's a big difference between having PTSD as a result of combat deployment and succumbing to the heat of passion to murder a bunch of innocent people alongside the people who killed your mother.

I couldn't sympathize with Anakin after he killed all those women and children Tuskens. Rule No. 1 of being a decent person is you don't hurt people who didn't hurt you. Whatever the male adult Sand People did to Shmi, the women and children were innocent of that. This was the start of Anakin's damnation. Padme was (or should have been) smart enough to see that and still stood by him, rather than leave (or at least admonish) him; that's why this scene of her comforting him instead rang so false to me. (We'll leave the issue of Hayden Christensen's bad acting contributing to the badness of this scene for another day.)

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I'm definitely not defending the scene, but maybe the Tusken aren't looked at as real people--like the way some Indians were viewed in the old west. They're animals--not people. So what if you kill a few.


Yeah, you definitely get that vibe when you see Cliegg Lars saying "Those Tuskens walk like men, but they're vicious, mindless monsters." Considering that Tatooine is on the fringe of galactic civilization and the Lars homestead is on the fringe of a small frontier town like Anchorhead, I'm sure that feeling is completely deliberate.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, you definitely get that vibe when you see Cliegg Lars saying "Those Tuskens walk like men, but they're vicious, mindless monsters." Considering that Tatooine is on the fringe of galactic civilization and the Lars homestead is on the fringe of a small frontier town like Anchorhead, I'm sure that feeling is completely deliberate.


That's how the Tuskens are portrayed in the ANH novelization, too (not that that is a good source for backing up SW arguments).

I love how the Jawas are portrayed in that novel, too. They're not cutesy, making fun noises, riding skyscraper sized animals. Instead, they are dirty, smelly beasts. The wear rancid robes, and they are described to have horrible smell with flies and nats buzzing about them.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I love how the Jawas are portrayed in the ANH novelization, too. They're not cutesy, making fun noises, riding skyscraper sized animals. Instead, they are dirty, smelly beasts. The wear rancid robes, and they are described to have horrible smell with flies and nats buzzing about them.


Considering that Jawas are described as "disgusting creatures" by C-3PO of all people, and how even he, a protocol droid designed to be polite and helpful in all (well, most) circumstances, can't abide them, that says alot right there. I remember Jawas being described somewhere as resembling rats or mice (but I may just be confusing that with the description of Jawas as "vermin"), but we also have the Chadra-Fan, who basically are mice-people and come off as alot cuter (and have better hygiene) than Jawas.

And let's face it: If the Jawas really do resemble rats or mice under their hoods, those glowing eyes certainly aren't going to help their appearance if they do indeed look like rats or mice, no matter how cute. *suppresses shudder*
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just finished re-reading the novelization of ANH a couple of weeks ago. There's no speculation of rat beings, but I'm sure they're described as vermin.

The glowing eyes were mentioned, IIRC, and there was speculation if that was their real eyes or some type of power assisted headgear that they wear.

The Sand People, according to that book, do use electronic head gear. That's what those fittings are over their eyes.

The glare from the desert, and all the blowing sand is referenced.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The Sand People, according to that book, do use electronic head gear. That's what those fittings are over their eyes.


Sand People using electronic gear? I figured those goggles of theirs was to reduce sun glare reflecting off the sand, but "electronic head gear?" I figured that the Sand People weren't anywhere near civilized enough to be able to use anything electronic. They may have blasters, but those aren't electronic.

Can you cite this, Wajeb? I'd like to look this up for myself in the ANH novelization.

EDIT: The only reference I could find that even came close to this was the line: "Those eyes were not organic, but they were not wholly mechanical either. No one could say for certain, because no one had ever made that intimate a study of the Tusken Raiders." That's not a reference to anything that could be electronic. For all we know, the reference to "partially mechanical eyes" could mean that the eyepieces the Tuskens wear could be a pair of miniature binoculars in goggle form.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Sand People using electronic gear? I figured those goggles of theirs was to reduce sun glare reflecting off the sand, but "electronic head gear?" I figured that the Sand People weren't anywhere near civilized enough to be able to use anything electronic. They may have blasters, but those aren't electronic.

Can you cite this, Wajeb? I'd like to look this up for myself in the ANH novelization.


Sure. Our pages are different, unless you have the hardbound omnibus, but it is in Chapter IV. In a section that starts with...

Quote:
Those eyes were not organic, but then, they weren't wholly mechanical, either. No one could say for certain, because no one had ever made that intimate a study of the Tusken Raiders--known less formally to the margin farmers of Tatooine simply as sandpeople.

The Tuskens didn't permit close study of themselves, discouraging potential observers by methods of effective as they were uncivilized. A few xenologists thought they must be related to the jawas. Even fewer hypothesized that the jawas were actually the mature form of the sandpeople, but this theory was discounted by the majority of serious scientists.

Both races affected tight clothing to shield them from Tatooine's twin dose of solar radiation, but there most comparisons ended. Instea of heavy woven cloaks like the jawas wore, the sandpeople wrapped themselves mummylike in endless swathings and bandages and loose bits of cloth.

Where the jawas feared everything, a Tusken Raider feared little. The sandpeople were larger, stronger, and far more aggressive. Fortunately fo the human colonists of Tatooine, they were not very numerous and elected to pursue their nomadic existence in some of Tatooine's most desolate regions. Contact between human and Tusken, therefore, was infrequent and uneasy, and they murdered no more than a handful of humans per year. Since the human population had claimed its share of Tuskens, not always with reason, a peace of a sort existed between the two--as long as neither side gained an advantage.


Later on, when the Tusken attacks luke, the gaderffii is described as being made from cannibalized freighter plating.

I love this part. The Sandpeople are so much more terrifying in the book...

Quote:
Luke scrambled backward and found himself against a steep drop. The Raider stalked him slowly, weapon held high over its rag-enclosed head. It uttered a gruesome, chuckling laugh, the sound made the more inhuman by the distortion effect of its gridlike sandfilter.


Once Luke is unconscious, the Raiders ignore him, more interested in their plunder: the landspeeder.

So, the Tuskens do know something about technology, albeit not much. As I showed in the quote, their eyes are enhanced somehow by machines.

Makes sense, looking at the pic of them. Those are metal pieces not something organic.


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