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Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (title/speculation)
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
And why would a technologically advanced society be using paper books instead of data pads?

These books could be ancient. The "first Jedi Temple" could have been built before modern SW technology existed or came to that planet. Or maybe they just really liked old fashion books. Just because high technology exists doesn't mean everyone has it or uses it. I have e-book reading tech but prefer to read dead tree books.


Plus a hard copy book can survive an EMP or other power damaging blast that normally would shut down the computers. AND there's no electronic signature to use sensors on!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
And why would a technologically advanced society be using paper books instead of data pads?

These books could be ancient. The "first Jedi Temple" could have been built before modern SW technology existed or came to that planet. Or maybe they just really liked old fashion books. Just because high technology exists doesn't mean everyone has it or uses it. I have e-book reading tech but prefer to read dead tree books.

Also, as we see in the Tales of the Jedi comics, there's already a lot of precedent for the Jedi using older methods to record information, with books and scrolls being commonplace on Ossus.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Treefrog wrote:
Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
And why would a technologically advanced society be using paper books instead of data pads?

These books could be ancient. The "first Jedi Temple" could have been built before modern SW technology existed or came to that planet. Or maybe they just really liked old fashion books. Just because high technology exists doesn't mean everyone has it or uses it. I have e-book reading tech but prefer to read dead tree books.


You're not alone. I also prefer dead tree books.


I think I have 3 books on my Kindle app and about 4 bookcases overflowing at home. Heck, I just got Thrawn, two 007 novels and a Star Trek compendium in the mail on Monday.

Physical books 4TW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Treefrog wrote:
Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
And why would a technologically advanced society be using paper books instead of data pads?

These books could be ancient. The "first Jedi Temple" could have been built before modern SW technology existed or came to that planet. Or maybe they just really liked old fashion books. Just because high technology exists doesn't mean everyone has it or uses it. I have e-book reading tech but prefer to read dead tree books.


Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
And why would a technologically advanced society be using paper books instead of data pads?

These books could be ancient. The "first Jedi Temple" could have been built before modern SW technology existed or came to that planet. Or maybe they just really liked old fashion books. Just because high technology exists doesn't mean everyone has it or uses it. I have e-book reading tech but prefer to read dead tree books.


You're not alone. I also prefer dead tree books.


Plus a hard copy book can survive an EMP or other power damaging blast that normally would shut down the computers. AND there's no electronic signature to use sensors on!


I mourn those dead trees, but I also prefer hardcover physical books. The fact that they're immune to EMPs is just a bonus. 8)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yoda was the head of Jedi youngling training for 800 years. What if his dogmatic view of the Force is what leads to the eventual downfall of the Jedi and the result of what Luke finds out while on Ahch-To, a great betrayal of what the Jedi were to do and what the Force is, when he says "The Jedi must end."
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Yoda was the head of Jedi youngling training for 800 years. What if his dogmatic view of the Force is what leads to the eventual downfall of the Jedi and the result of what Luke finds out while on Ahch-To, a great betrayal of what the Jedi were to do and what the Force is, when he says "The Jedi must end."


From a post on tumblr...

the Entire Point ™ of the original star wars trilogy was that Luke Skywalker, the truest Jedi there ever was, did NOT follow the ways of the old Jedi and made his own way. Where his masters told him not to help his friends, not to be attached, not to try and save his father, he DID all of those things, all while staying true to himself and to the light side, using that attachment and love and care to do so. Pop culture and casual Star Wars fans all seem to ignore this fact and idealize the old Jedi ways, even while hating on the prequels, and in doing this they fail to understand the entire moral of the original trilogy. Luke Skywalker is one of the best characters in film history and him and his character arc and significance being so widely misunderstood is just an utter tragedy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
shootingwomprats wrote:
Yoda was the head of Jedi youngling training for 800 years. What if his dogmatic view of the Force is what leads to the eventual downfall of the Jedi and the result of what Luke finds out while on Ahch-To, a great betrayal of what the Jedi were to do and what the Force is, when he says "The Jedi must end."


From a post on tumblr...

the Entire Point ™ of the original star wars trilogy was that Luke Skywalker, the truest Jedi there ever was, did NOT follow the ways of the old Jedi and made his own way. Where his masters told him not to help his friends, not to be attached, not to try and save his father, he DID all of those things, all while staying true to himself and to the light side, using that attachment and love and care to do so. Pop culture and casual Star Wars fans all seem to ignore this fact and idealize the old Jedi ways, even while hating on the prequels, and in doing this they fail to understand the entire moral of the original trilogy. Luke Skywalker is one of the best characters in film history and him and his character arc and significance being so widely misunderstood is just an utter tragedy


Only part of that is true. The part about Luke being right to rush off to Bespin to save his friends is hogwash. That one decision was Luke's greatest mistake and it cost him nearly everything. He set off to save his friends, but in the end, they had to rescue him. As soon as he got to Bespin, Leia warned him that it was a trap and he kept going. He sees Vader and instead of realizing how in over his head he is and running in the opposite direction (something that even Kanan and Ezra immediately knew to do), he wordlessly challenges Vader to a duel by igniting his lightsaber first. Luke is arrogant enough to think he can take on Vader, but then gets his @$$ promptly handed to him just as he loses his own hand. Then he finds out that his greatest enemy is his own father. And then he's facing the prospect of dying by being crushed by atmospheric pressure because of a bottomless fall into a gas giant. By the time that Leia and the others rescue him and get him onboard the Falcon, he's a physical and mental wreck because everything about why he's fighting the Empire has been thrown into confusion and doubt.

Luke may have been right about defying Obi-Wan and Yoda about redeeming his father, but Luke was dead wrong about defying Obi-Wan and Yoda about leaving Dagobah early. The losses that decision incurred on Luke are even lampshaded in the novelization of RotJ when Luke is reminiscing to himself as he's entering Jabba's palace about how he's finally become a man:

Luke Skywalker wrote:
He was clad in the robe of the Jedi Knight--a cassock, really--but bore neither gun nor lightsaber. He stood loosely, without bravado, taking a measure of the place before entering. He was a man now. Wiser, like a man--older more from loss than from years. Loss of illusions, loss of dependency. Loss of friends, to war. Loss of sleep, to stress. Loss of laughter. Loss of his hand.

But of all his losses, the greatest was that which came from knowledge, and from the deep recognition that he could never un-know what he knew. So many things he wished he'd never learned. He had aged with the weight of this knowledge...


And then Luke wonders briefly if the gain was worth the cost:

Luke Skywalker wrote:
There were other advantages to knowledge: rationality, etiquette, choice. Choice, of them all, was a true double-edged sword; but it did have its advantages.

Furthermore he was skilled in the craft of the Jedi now, where before he'd been merely precocious.

He was more aware now.

These were all desirable attributes, to be sure; and Luke knew as well as anyone that all things alive must grow. Still, it carried a certain sadness, the sum of all this knowledge. A certain sense of regret. But who could afford to be a boy in times such as these?

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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:

Only part of that is true. The part about Luke being right to rush off to Bespin to save his friends is hogwash. That one decision was Luke's greatest mistake and it cost him nearly everything. He set off to save his friends, but in the end, they had to rescue him. As soon as he got to Bespin, Leia warned him that it was a trap and he kept going. He sees Vader and instead of realizing how in over his head he is and running in the opposite direction (something that even Kanan and Ezra immediately knew to do), he wordlessly challenges Vader to a duel by igniting his lightsaber first. Luke is arrogant enough to think he can take on Vader, but then gets his @$$ promptly handed to him just as he loses his own hand. Then he finds out that his greatest enemy is his own father. And then he's facing the prospect of dying by being crushed by atmospheric pressure because of a bottomless fall into a gas giant. By the time that Leia and the others rescue him and get him onboard the Falcon, he's a physical and mental wreck because everything about why he's fighting the Empire has been thrown into confusion and doubt.

Luke may have been right about defying Obi-Wan and Yoda about redeeming his father, but Luke was dead wrong about defying Obi-Wan and Yoda about leaving Dagobah early.


I agree. Luke rushing off like that, showed how little he had learned and heard from Yoda, AND not only got himself killed, but his friends too (when they had to swoop back to pick him up)..
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Only part of that is true. The part about Luke being right to rush off to Bespin to save his friends is hogwash. That one decision was Luke's greatest mistake and it cost him nearly everything. He set off to save his friends, but in the end, they had to rescue him. As soon as he got to Bespin, Leia warned him that it was a trap and he kept going. He sees Vader and instead of realizing how in over his head he is and running in the opposite direction (something that even Kanan and Ezra immediately knew to do), he wordlessly challenges Vader to a duel by igniting his lightsaber first. Luke is arrogant enough to think he can take on Vader, but then gets his @$$ promptly handed to him just as he loses his own hand. Then he finds out that his greatest enemy is his own father. And then he's facing the prospect of dying by being crushed by atmospheric pressure because of a bottomless fall into a gas giant. By the time that Leia and the others rescue him and get him onboard the Falcon, he's a physical and mental wreck because everything about why he's fighting the Empire has been thrown into confusion and doubt.

Luke may have been right about defying Obi-Wan and Yoda about redeeming his father, but Luke was dead wrong about defying Obi-Wan and Yoda about leaving Dagobah early.

I agree. Luke rushing off like that, showed how little he had learned and heard from Yoda, AND not only got himself killed, but his friends too (when they had to swoop back to pick him up).

Yes, but...

Quote:
LUKE: Han! Leia!

YODA: Hmm. Control, control. You must learn control.

LUKE: I saw... I saw a city in the clouds.

YODA: Mmm. Friends you have there.

LUKE: They were in pain.

YODA: It is the future you see.

LUKE: Future? Will they die?

YODA: Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.
...

BEN: It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer.

LUKE: And that's why I have to go.
...

BEN: Patience!

LUKE: And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA: If you honor what they fight for... yes!
...

HAN: I feel terrible.

LEIA: Why are they doing this?

HAN: They never even asked me any questions.
...

LUKE: I've come back to complete the training.

YODA: No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.

LUKE: Then I am a Jedi?

YODA: Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

At the point of Luke's vision on Dagobah, there was a possible future in which Han and eventually Leia were both made to suffer. And there was also a possible future of Luke's vision that his friend(s) may die because Yoda couldn't discount it (and even indicated Han and Leia should be sacrificed). We later see Han being made to suffer, but as far as we know Leia was never likewise tortured. Luke shows up and falls into Vader's trap, preventing half of his vision from occurring. What this means is that it is extremely likely that if Luke had ignored his vision and stayed on Dagobah longer, Vader would have moved on to torturing Leia. And thus, if Luke had continued to ignore the vision and received more training, Han and/or Leia could have died under more severe torture. In a rage that Luke had not come yet, Vader may have just killed one of them to really get Luke's attention, and made the other suffer so Luke still had a reason to come (and he's be really pissed, even closer to the Dark Side). In the end they both could have died.

If Han and Leia had died while Luke completed his training, yes he would have been a more fully trained Jedi, but how do you think he would have felt about sacrificing Han and Leia? Maybe he would want to go after Vader to seek revenge instead of wanting to turn him back to the good side. Would Lando have joined the Rebellion if Han and Leia had died on Cloud City? And how would Endor have played out without Han, Leia and Lando there?

And remember, when Luke finally went back to Dagobah, Yoda told him he didn't need any more training. However, that fullness of training was still not good enough to defeat the Sith Lords anyway. Yoda and Obi-Wan had put all their chips on Luke defeating them, and of course the only way that would even be possible (without replacing them) would be to not give in to the Dark Side. After the fall of the Jedi Order and rise of the Sith-ruled Empire, Yoda and Obi-Wan just had a desperate fool's hope in Luke fulling the ancient prophecy his father hadn't. Luke only defeated Vader with the help of the Dark Side, but Luke never had a chance against Palpatine. Luke only successfully resisted the Dark Side.

If Luke had completed his training the first time, I don't see it ending well for any of our trinity of classic heroes. If Luke hadn't gone to Cloud City, he may not have learned the truth about his father, which was exactly how it ended up being possible for the Sith to be defeated - Luke's appeal to his father's compassion is the only thing that destroyed the Sith. Sure, rushing off to Cloud City lead to a horrible defeat for Luke, but Han and Leia lived, Lando joined the Rebellion, Han being taken alive to Jabba lead to the elimination of Han's debt so he could join the Rebellion, and Luke's refusal to kill his father allowed the Chosen One to return and bring balance to the Force. Based on the implications of Luke's vision on Dagobah, I don't feel Luke was "dead wrong" about leaving Dagobah early.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
shootingwomprats wrote:
Yoda was the head of Jedi youngling training for 800 years. What if his dogmatic view of the Force is what leads to the eventual downfall of the Jedi and the result of what Luke finds out while on Ahch-To, a great betrayal of what the Jedi were to do and what the Force is, when he says "The Jedi must end."

From a post on tumblr...

the Entire Point ™ of the original star wars trilogy was that Luke Skywalker, the truest Jedi there ever was, did NOT follow the ways of the old Jedi and made his own way. Where his masters told him not to help his friends, not to be attached, not to try and save his father, he DID all of those things, all while staying true to himself and to the light side, using that attachment and love and care to do so. Pop culture and casual Star Wars fans all seem to ignore this fact and idealize the old Jedi ways, even while hating on the prequels, and in doing this they fail to understand the entire moral of the original trilogy. Luke Skywalker is one of the best characters in film history and him and his character arc and significance being so widely misunderstood is just an utter tragedy

Not only was Luke a rebel against Yoda's teachings, but Obi-Wan and Yoda no longer followed the ways of the old Jedi order. Yoda had had his misgivings about Anakin beginning his training with attachment to his mother and fear of losing her. But when that leads to the Jedi Order being decimated, suddenly Obi-Wan and Yoda drastically change their ways. They were worried about the Sith sensing the presence of Anakin's children, so they decided that the twins should be split up and hidden with non-Force parents who raise them as normal children (with attachments) and would receive no Jedi training until adulthood. The two Jedi Masters were right to do so, because as soon as Luke was finally on his way to Dagobah to receive training, Palpatine senses a great disturbance in the Force and tells Vader that Luke must not become a Jedi because it could lead to their destruction. That tells me that if Yoda and Obi-Wan had began training the twins from birth, even separately, that the Sith may track them down and eliminate the treat when they are still children. Allowing the children to grow up without Jedi training at least gave them a fighting chance to destroy the Sith. The old ways of the Jedi were abandoned when the Empire started, and it was indeed Luke's familial attachment that saved the galaxy. That wasn't only Luke's rebellion against his masters, because they allowed him to grow up with attachments (in violation of old Jedi ways) in the first place.
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding what looks like an altar among a tree's root system in a cave, in the preview--

Remember another tree that has shown up in the films. The bent and mis-formed tree on Degobah that was filled with the Dark Side. Luke ventured under that tree, into a cave, under the tree's roots, to face himself/Darth Vader.
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Not only was Luke a rebel against Yoda's teachings, but Obi-Wan and Yoda no longer followed the ways of the old Jedi order. Yoda had had his misgivings about Anakin beginning his training with attachment to his mother and fear of losing her. But when that leads to the Jedi Order being decimated, suddenly Obi-Wan and Yoda drastically change their ways. They were worried about the Sith sensing the presence of Anakin's children, so they decided that the twins should be split up and hidden with non-Force parents who raise them as normal children (with attachments) and would receive no Jedi training until adulthood. The two Jedi Masters were right to do so, because as soon as Luke was finally on his way to Dagobah to receive training, Palpatine senses a great disturbance in the Force and tells Vader that Luke must not become a Jedi because it could lead to their destruction. That tells me that if Yoda and Obi-Wan had began training the twins from birth, even separately, that the Sith may track them down and eliminate the treat when they are still children. Allowing the children to grow up without Jedi training at least gave them a fighting chance to destroy the Sith. The old ways of the Jedi were abandoned when the Empire started, and it was indeed Luke's familial attachment that saved the galaxy. That wasn't only Luke's rebellion against his masters, because they allowed him to grow up with attachments (in violation of old Jedi ways) in the first place.


This actually makes a great deal of sense and it's hinted at in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith as Yoda is fighting Darth Sidious.

Revenge of the Sith, p. 395-397 wrote:
There came a turning point in the clash between the light and the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy, though there were these in plenty; it dod not come from a flying kick or a surgiically precise punch, though these were traded too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just--

didn't--

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force, but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

The had become new.

While the Jedi--

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed ith a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...


Yeah, here we see Yoda realizing that a new way to fight the Sith must be found, but as we see in the original trilogy, it fell to Luke to find that new way to destroy the Sith. Fortunately for the galaxy, Luke had the right realization at the right time when he saw his father's mechanized stump then looked at his own mechanical hand.

Return of the Jedi, page 453 wrote:
Luke stared at his father beneath him. then at the Emperor, then back at Vader. This was Darkness--and it was the Darkness he hated. Not his father. not even the Emperor. But the Darkness in them. In them, and in himself.

And the only way to destroy the Darkness was to renounce it. For once and for all. He stood suddenly erect, and made the decision for which he'd spent his life preparation.

He hurled his lightsaber away. "Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

The Emperor's glee turned to a sullen rage. "So be it...Jedi."

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things...

I just caught (as many times as I've seen TFA) that Max Kanata has run her pirate haven for a thousand years, according to Solo. 1,000 years?

She's older than Yoda was when he died. He was, what, 800 or so?




Second, Solo says that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. That must be what we see in the The Last Jedi teaser trailer.
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Two things...

I just caught (as many times as I've seen TFA) that Max Kanata has run her pirate haven for a thousand years, according to Solo. 1,000 years?

She's older than Yoda was when he died. He was, what, 800 or so?

Second, Solo says that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. That must be what we see in the The Last Jedi teaser trailer.


Yeah, Wajeb, Maz Kanata is indeed older than Yoda, who was 900 years old when he died, not 800. (He trained Jedi for 800 years, but said in ROTJ that he was 900.) She even says that "[she's] no Jedi, but [she] knows the Force." I'm told there's at least one deleted scene that illustrates that Maz is a very powerful Force user even though she's not a Jedi. I'm curious to see what her role will be in TLJ.

And yes, we'll see more of the first Jedi Temple in TLJ. I'm disappointed that the Tho Yor aren't getting canonized, but you can't have everything, I guess. I'm curious to see where Disney takes the origins of the Jedi in this new movie.
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if we will ever get any more extrapolation on BOTH Maz Kanata's race and Yoda's race.
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