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Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (title/speculation)
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Even after collaborating with Plagueis and learning everything he could from him, even with the clone bodies sustaining him for a time, even with all the Light and Dark lore he learned, he still went to his own damnation after making the greatest effort in the history of the galaxy to avoid it.

Damnation? See my previous post. Star Wars doesn't have heaven and hell. The only known afterlife is becoming a Force Ghost. Otherwise your individual life force is transformed into the Force per Yoda.

Sutehp wrote:
garhkal wrote:
The closest we have to that is the force (sith) power that palpy used to inhabit his own clones, and in Dark empire 2, TRIED to use to take over one of Leia's kids..

There's a scene in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith where just before Obi-Wan manages to find Bail Organa and Yoda on Polis Massa, (and just before Bail enters the room to inform Yoda of Obi-Wan's arrival in fact), Yoda was conversing with Qui-Gon Jinn's Force ghost on how immortality is achieved. Qui-Gon even says that while immortality is the ultimate objective of the Sith, the Sith can never achieve it because becoming a Force ghost requires the willing release of self, rather than the exaltation of self.

And Ol' Palpy was nothing if he wasn't about the exaltation of self. He failed before he even started.

It's true... All of it... Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Plagueis the Wise?...

Quote:
To cheat death is a power only one has achieved...

From the movie alone, it would seem that Palpatine is referring to Qui-Gon, but how would he know about that? It is possible that Plagueis actually survived through some Dark Side method that Qui-Gon was not aware of. If Palpatine was anything he was a masterful liar and manipulator.
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Xain Arke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, for those of you out there thinking Jedi may be plural, it could be, but it is most likely not. It would have been "the Last of the Jedi" otherwise, which still preserves the plural as "Jedi" and is more correct grammatically.


Jedi is plural and singular, it is used that way in the movies; The Jedi are relentless. I am a Jedi like my father before me. You Jedi are far too reckless. The Jedi are extinct etc. I can't reference a single time anyone refers to Jedis.

The EP8 title reads perfectly fine in english as meaning plural or singular, The Last Jedi doesn't need the 'of the' to refer to more than one, it would just be preference or for deliberate clarity to add it, rather than correct or incorrect grammar.

Now I'm not saying this title is referencing plural Jedi, no one outside of the movie production knows either way yet, just that it could mean more than one the way it has been written.

Being JJ-related, I suspect the title is deliberately ambiguous Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xain Arke wrote:
Quote:
Also, for those of you out there thinking Jedi may be plural, it could be, but it is most likely not. It would have been "the Last of the Jedi" otherwise, which still preserves the plural as "Jedi" and is more correct grammatically.


Jedi is plural and singular, it is used that way in the movies; The Jedi are relentless. I am a Jedi like my father before me. You Jedi are far too reckless. The Jedi are extinct etc. I can't reference a single time anyone refers to Jedis.

The EP8 title reads perfectly fine in english as meaning plural or singular, The Last Jedi doesn't need the 'of the' to refer to more than one, it would just be preference or for deliberate clarity to add it, rather than correct or incorrect grammar.

Now I'm not saying this title is referencing plural Jedi, no one outside of the movie production knows either way yet, just that it could mean more than one the way it has been written.

Being JJ-related, I suspect the title is deliberately ambiguous Rolling Eyes

Xain

Oh, I'm not disputing that use of it at all. I just think it's unlikely the title is indicating more than one. However—maybe in the context of the movie itself, the epithet could apply to more than one individual. Right now, Luke Skywalker seems to be the last of the Jedi. He never trained his sister (who knows why?) and Episode VII implied that all of his pupils turned to the dark side at once. Now we have newcomer Rey who is already pulling CSA Force skills, and who Luke perhaps trains in Episode VIII. We know so little about the film.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
Oh, I'm not disputing that use of it at all. I just think it's unlikely the title is indicating more than one.


...And yet there is a movie called "Return Of The Jedi". Idea

Heres my two cents, so expect some change coming.

All I ask is that the movie is better written than Episode VII (a film I found dreadfully appalling on so many levels). If the Jedi in the subtitle is Luke or Rey or both or neither or Mr frickin Rogers, I don't much care - all I ask is that real drama within the film merits that title. I really have very little hope for that but they'll get my $8 - and then maybe a hospital bill for when I roll my eyes so hard they detach from my retinas. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WillTasker wrote:
...and then maybe a hospital bill for when I roll my eyes so hard they detach from my retinas. Wink


The Simpsons wrote:
Marge: You're a good father.
Homer: I learned from the master.
[Grampa is playing "peek-a-boo" with Maggie.]
Grampa: Where's Maggie? Where's Maggie? I'm not kidding, I can't see, my retinas have detached again!
[Marge and Homer laugh]
Apu: He is blind as a bat! [the three laugh harder]

Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember that Simpsons episode!

WillTasker wrote:
Heres my two cents, so expect some change coming.

All I ask is that the movie is better written than Episode VII (a film I found dreadfully appalling on so many levels). If the Jedi in the subtitle is Luke or Rey or both or neither or Mr frickin Rogers, I don't much care - all I ask is that real drama within the film merits that title. I really have very little hope for that but they'll get my $8 - and then maybe a hospital bill for when I roll my eyes so hard they detach from my retinas.

So you're pre-hating a movie you haven't seen yet. Don't you think that negative expectation will influence your experience of it? If disliked TFA so much that it is just impossible not to dread the new film, don't you think it would be wise just to keep your $8?

My experience with fans who predict they will hate a film before they see it is: (1) They always do, and (2) They always are very vocal about bashing it online. There's just no logic in (1) torturing themselves, and (2) everyone else with all that unnecessary negativity.

If you must see it, may the Force be with you in a miracle happening and you finding a way to enjoy the movie!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Return of Anakin Skywalker Reply with quote

WillTasker wrote:
Error wrote:
Oh, I'm not disputing that use of it at all. I just think it's unlikely the title is indicating more than one.

...And yet there is a movie called "Return Of The Jedi". Idea

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=169108#169108

And yet in Return of the Jedi, "the Jedi" is singular...


REVENGE OF THE SITH - The Jedi Order is destroyed. Anakin Skywalker buries his Jedi Knight persona with his conversion to Sith Lord. (Before the prequels existed, these same events were still a generation in the background of A New Hope.)

Two Jedi Masters, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, are "the Jedi" during this time period.

A NEW HOPE - Luke Skywalker just barely begins training to be a Jedi. Obi-Wan dies.

Yoda is "the Jedi" during this time period.

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK - Luke receives more training, but it is still incomplete. There is a dramatic shift in the saga with "I am your father."

Yoda is "the Jedi" during this time period.

RETURN OF THE JEDI - Yoda dies. Luke later passes his trial and becomes a Jedi Knight. The Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker returns after a 20+ year absence to destroy the Sith before dying. So "the Jedi" in this movie were (1) Yoda, (2) none, (3) Luke, (4) Anakin and Luke, (5) Luke.

Luke is "the Jedi" during this time period. (The new generation of Jedi students were destroyed by the Knights of Ren, leaving still just Luke.)

THE FORCE AWAKENS - Luke is the "the Jedi".


When I was a kid, there were no post-RotJ stories except for the Marvel comic which went on for a while before petering out. Even in high school with the start of this RPG, there still weren't stories beyond the films and the prequels still weren't a sure thing yet. Yoda told Luke, "Pass on what you have learned." In my mind, the title of the third movie did include a forward-looking meaning that the Jedi Order would be reborn as a result of Vader and Palpatine dying, and Luke becoming a Jedi Knight. So sure, "the Jedi" who "returned" could be thought of a new Jedi Order, seeded in this movie.

But even then, the title of RotJ still always primarily referred to Anakin, the only Jedi who actually returned in that movie. Luke just newly became a Jedi at the end of the film. The Jedi Order did not return in this film. Obi-Wan did not return. Yoda died and did not return. The few representatives who carried the flame for the Jedi Order were barely plural between III and IV, then singular between IV and VI, but were never completely gone at any point in the saga, except for that short time within RotJ itself when there were technically no Jedi. If the title is only referencing the time between Yoda's death and Luke achieving Knighthood, then it's a fairly weak title. Anakin was gone for a generation and returned. That's epic. Star Wars is epic. Star Wars is not weak.

The prequels only strengthened this original meaning of RotJ by the six film saga showing the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, who had a virgin birth (with more midichlorians than Yoda), the Chosen One of an ancient prophecy who brought balance to the Force and destroyed the Sith. And now we have seen 30 years after RotJ and the Jedi Order still hasn't returned, so I really don't understand how anyone can still say "the Jedi" in RotJ is plural.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think these titles are meant to suggest multiple possible meanings. Based on the original title being Revenge of the Jedi, and Tarkin’s line in SW: “The Jedi are extinct; their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that’s left of their religion,” and Yoda’s line in RotJ: “Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke. There is another Skywalker,” I think in 1983 it would have been understood by most people as “Return of the Jedi (Knights)”.

But “Return of the Jedi, Anakin Skywalker” is also a valid reading, especially if, as you say, you view the six-episode PT+OT as a single grand “Skywalker Saga” story, as GL later saw it.

And it could just be “The Good Guys Make a Comeback” in answer to the Empire having previously Struck Back.

Who or what is the “phantom menace”? The Sith? Senator Palpatine? Anakin?

Who or what is the “new hope”? Luke (because Obi-Wan was her “only hope” before?) The Death Star plans (“It is our only hope”)? The rise of the Alliance? Its victory at Yavin?

I’m sure they love people out there speculating what The Last Jedi means. The answer is it’s probably a double meaning. It will have an obvious meaning (the movie will feature Luke heavily, of course) and a less-obvious meaning (look for him to say to someone, “We are the last of the Jedi” or “You are the last of the Jedi” or something like that).

As for recasting Princess Leia, of course they should recast her. We have seen 2 Obi-Wans, 2 Mon Mothmas, 2 Owens, 2 Berus, 2 Emperors, 3 Boba Fetts, and 5 Anakins. They have a new Han and a new Lando for the 2018 movie. And that’s just movies — there have been numerous voice portrayals for audio dramas, video games, and cartoons, some of them quite excellent.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill makes a good point. I always thought that "Return of the Jedi" always mean the Jedi as a whole/Jedi Order returning to the notice of the galaxy after Obi-Wan and Yoda went into their self-imposed exile. But as TFA shows with Rey thinking of the Jedi as myths ("The Jedi were real?"), much of the galaxy still thinks of the Jedi as mythical only 50 years after their fall during Order 66. Whill makes a good argument that the "return" of the Jedi to the galaxy at large...didn't really happen.

Then again, George Lucas expected RotJ to be the end of the saga when he came up with that title (and rightfully changed the title away from "Revenge of the Jedi.") No one knew then that 30 years later we'd be getting a continuation of the saga with Luke still being the only Jedi left in the galaxy.

And Force only knows what happened to Kanan Jarrus and Ezra Bridger by this time. Fans of Rebels, myself included, are still wondering if Kanan and Ezra are going to be Doomed By Canon just because of what Yoda said in RotJ about Luke becoming the last of the Jedi once Yoda dies. By the time of TFA, Ezra is going to be 53 (almost exactly the same age as Luke) and Kanan will be in his 60s at least, assuming they're still alive.

I know the Sequel Trilogy is all about passing the torch to a new generation, so the OT characters will have their swan song soon enough. Han is already dead in TFA, Leia won't be appearing in Episode 9 because of Carrie Fisher's passing, and it's likely that Luke will be dead or gone by the end of Episode 9 as well. It's already tough having to say goodbye to Han and Leia; I'm going to really hate saying goodbye to Luke. But, as Yoda says, Twilight comes and soon Night must fall on everyone. That is the way of things...the way of the Force.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to disagree that "Return of the Jedi" referred specifically to Anakin. The original title was Revenge of the Jedi, as folks have noted...revenge upon the Dark Side (to me).

I believe RotJ was *always* about the return of the Jedi Order. Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned and that there is another who could be trained. We assume he does that. The books (which GL likes to say he had no creative control over—not true, especially the Thrawn and Jedi Academy trilogy) say that he does.

What bothers me is that this latest title is so DRAMATIC. Why does it always have to be the Revenge, Return, Awakening, of something? Why can't it just be something else? Ugh. It just sounds like another Jedi extinction to me and we've had enough of those. Just bring back the old order already! It's what EVERYONE wants to see! Disney writers, no one wants the dumb narrative you're now creating as canon, as fast as you can, with rampant dumbed-downness.

There really should have been a healthy and protective Jedi Order now within the SWU. I firmly believe the "Knights of Ren" (another dumb name, who the hell is Ren? Ren and Stimpy?) are a bunch of half-assed adversaries. Kylo got his @$$ kicked by TWO people who had never even held a lightsaber before.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I have to disagree that "Return of the Jedi" referred specifically to Anakin. The original title was Revenge of the Jedi, as folks have noted...revenge upon the Dark Side (to me).


But that's the reason Lucas changed the title: Revenge is not the Jedi way. To say nothing of the fact that it's impossible to get revenge on a force of nature (see/read Moby Dick), especially something as impersonal and supernal as the Dark Side of the Force. How does one get revenge on a hurricane or a tornado or an earthquake?

Error wrote:
What bothers me is that this latest title is so DRAMATIC. Why does it always have to be the Revenge, Return, Awakening, of something? Why can't it just be something else? Ugh. It just sounds like another Jedi extinction to me and we've had enough of those. Just bring back the old order already! It's what EVERYONE wants to see! Disney writers, no one wants the dumb narrative you're now creating as canon, as fast as you can, with rampant dumbed-downness.


It's drama and conflict that drive good stories. How compelling would it be for a new Jedi Order to arise from the ashes to kick the First Order's collective @$$ in a curb-stomp battle? You'd be going into full-on Boring Invincible Hero territory then. Not alot of people would pay to see something like that. I happen to think that seeing Luke's nascent Jedi Order ruthlessly destroyed by his own nephew is incredibly tragic and Luke's grief driving him into a 6 year exile even moreso. Yeah, I want to see the Jedi Order reestablished too, but we have 2 more movies to go to see Luke and Rey earn their happy ending. It will be worth the wait in the end.

Error wrote:
There really should have been a healthy and protective Jedi Order now within the SWU. I firmly believe the "Knights of Ren" (another dumb name, who the hell is Ren? Ren and Stimpy?) are a bunch of half-assed adversaries. Kylo got his @$$ kicked by TWO people who had never even held a lightsaber before.


To be fair, Error, if the two people you're referring to are Finn and Rey, remember that Finn didn't hand Kylo Ren his @$$; it was the other way around. And don't forget that Ren was very badly wounded by both Chewbacca's bowcaster as well as murdering his own father; that was the start of Ren's Villanous Breakdown. Ren thought that murdering his father would extinguish the last of the Light in him and finally make him stronger. It weakened him instead. As a result of both things, Ren was suffering both physically and psychologically. (To say nothing of his masochistic beating on his own wound.) Also, Ren wasn't fully trained at the time; Snoke specifically mentions that Ren's training is incomplete. So it's not surprising that Rey managed to beat Ren, especially after her Heroic Second Wind when she tapped into the Force. And sure, Rey never held a lightsaber before, but seeing her being really handy with that staff of hers on Jakku shows us that she at least is really handy at melee combat, so it makes sense that she could adapt to fighting with a lightsaber despite never having held one before. Given all that evening the odds, it makes sense that she manages to eke out a win against someone who in normal circumstances would have taken off her head instantly.

As for the rest of the Knights of Ren, to be fair, we haven't even seen them fight yet, not even in the flashback/Force vision they were in, so it's premature to accuse them of being "half-assed adversaries."

Just my 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Error wrote:
I have to disagree that "Return of the Jedi" referred specifically to Anakin. The original title was Revenge of the Jedi, as folks have noted...revenge upon the Dark Side (to me).

But that's the reason Lucas changed the title: Revenge is not the Jedi way.

Error, even with the old title with Revenge, Luke was just dying and Anakin is the one killed Palpatine. Even the less appropriate title was referring to Anakin!

Unless you think that the title referred specifically to Luke getting revenge on Vader for cutting off his hand in the previous movie. Yes, revenge is the Dark Side, and Luke was certainly filled with the Dark Side when he cut off Vader's hand. If the original title in the whole movie referred to these two character's cutting each other's hand off, then that would be a very weak title, but Star Wars is not weak. And actually, that still wouldn't even work because Luke did not pass his trial and become a Jedi Knight until after he cut off Vader's hand. It was rejecting the Dark Side after that which made Luke a Jedi Knight.

Error wrote:
I believe RotJ was *always* about the return of the Jedi Order. Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned and that there is another who could be trained. We assume he does that.

Between RotS and ANH, there were two known Jedi in film canon (Obi-Wan and Yoda). Between ANH and RotJ, there was one (Yoda). RotJ ends with one Jedi (Luke). How is that the Jedi as a whole returning from anything? Since the destruction of the Jedi Order, there were always one or two Jedi holding the flame. The end of RotJ is no different, so there isn't a "return" of the Jedi in any greater numbers. The Jedi Order did not return in RotJ. The only Jedi who returned in the movie is Anakin.

Granted there is a significant difference with Luke representing the legacy of the Jedi Order. At the end of the movie, the lone Jedi this time is not living under Sith rule, so if you want to say the meaning of the title includes the Jedi Order as in "Return of the Jedi without the oppression of the Sith," I'll give you that. But that still doesn't take anything away from the bold obvious reality you seem to be resistant to, that Anakin returns after a generation of being buried under the persona of Darth Vader. Do you have something against Anakin Skywalker? And I don't mean Ani of the prequels. Anakin Skywalker was an extremely important character to TESB and RotJ, but he was most important in that he returned, saved Luke and killed the Emperor.

Error wrote:
The books (which GL likes to say he had no creative control over—not true, especially the Thrawn and Jedi Academy trilogy) say that he does... There really should have been a healthy and protective Jedi Order now within the SWU.

Ah, now I'm beginning to see where you're coming from. You're still sore that the post-RotJ EU was replaced by the new canon. I wish I could say something meaningful to help you get over it. Even in the EU, the new Jedi Order started by Luke was still many years after RotJ.

The existence of a new Jedi Order in the EU was a natural progression from Episode 6 for the EU authors as well as the fans. George Lucas is a businessman and artist. His creative control did not create much of any continuity of the EU. Lucas held executive veto power to reject things, and those decisions were business decisions for what he felt was best for the sake of the franchise. The EU was only ever a business for GL. The films were his art. You are definitely not alone in confusing these things. Many fans of the EU have elevated the EU to the status of the films, so much that it is superior to the prequels and/or the Disney franchise. Lucas did not have the same type of appreciation for the EU that you do.

Error wrote:
What bothers me is that this latest title is so DRAMATIC. Why does it always have to be the Revenge, Return, Awakening, of something? Why can't it just be something else? Ugh.

Star Wars is drama. Wow. I feel all of the titles are appropriate, except I can't be the judge of TLJ yet. I find it to be extremely prejudice to not like the title of a movie before one has seen the movie.

There's probably no helping your general movie title nitpick (which even includes RotJ!). Maybe just think of them by the numbers? It would probably be a good idea to not bother yourself about the correct meaning of the titles if they are too dramatic for you anyway. And what Sutehp said...

Error wrote:
It just sounds like another Jedi extinction to me and we've had enough of those. Just bring back the old order already!

Everything Sutehp said above. If you want to watch a movie with hundreds of Jedi from start to end, there's always Episode 2. 8)

Error wrote:
It's what EVERYONE wants to see! Disney writers, no one wants the dumb narrative you're now creating as canon, as fast as you can, with rampant dumbed-downness. Disney writers, no one wants the dumb narrative you're now creating as canon, as fast as you can, with rampant dumbed-downness.

No, you certainly do not speak for "everyone." I love TFA. I am optimistic I will like Episodes 8 and 9. And I am not alone.

Error wrote:
I firmly believe the "Knights of Ren" (another dumb name, who the hell is Ren? Ren and Stimpy?) are a bunch of half-assed adversaries. Kylo got his @$$ kicked by TWO people who had never even held a lightsaber before.

We know almost nothing of the Knights of Ren so far. Finn got his @ss handed to him by a wounded Ren. Per Snoke, Ren's training was not complete. And everything Sutehp said above.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My wife, son, and I just rewatched TFA tonight...

TFA Opening Crawl wrote:
Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed...


Supreme Leader Snoke's very first line in the film...
Quote:
The droid will soon be delivered to the Resistance, leading them to the last Jedi. If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise.


These two things alone strongly imply there aren't a bunch of Jedi in hiding, at least not full-fledged knights (Snoke could be wrong but I doubt the opening crawl would be). I am certain that the title of The Last Jedi refers to Luke Skywalker in some way. Now the meaning of it could broaden over the course of the film, such as if Rey becomes a Jedi Knight then she could be included in a plurality of "the last Jedi". And even if she doesn't, yes it is possible that the title could refer to Luke and Luke wouldn't necessarily die in this film. But there could also be a transfer of "the last Jedi" from Luke to Rey. Anyway you slice it, yes it's purposefully dramatic!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
These two things alone strongly imply there aren't a bunch of Jedi in hiding, at least not full-fledged knights (Snoke could be wrong but I doubt the opening crawl would be). I am certain that the title of The Last Jedi refers to Luke Skywalker in some way. Now the meaning of it could broaden over the course of the film, such as if Rey becomes a Jedi Knight then she could be included in a plurality of "the last Jedi". And even if she doesn't, yes it is possible that the title could refer to Luke and Luke wouldn't necessarily die in this film. But there could also be a transfer of "the last Jedi" from Luke to Rey. Anyway you slice it, yes it's purposefully dramatic!


One of the conceits that makes the RPG, and a lot of other Star Wars stories work, is that there were a lot of semi-Jedi, even during the Empire... Yoda and Kenobi, obviously, but all the half-trained Padawans, the far-flung Jed Service Corps members, and so on.

So, yeah, I figure Luke was the last surviving Jedi... but Snoke spoke a bit of prophecy in that new Jedi would arise in his wake.

And anyone notice that makes TWO Jedi purges where the last one alive was the teacher of everyone else? Yoda, then Luke? What aren't they passing on, ya know?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they are passing on a secret handshake! Razz Razz
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