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Melee combat against Stormtroopers
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Telsij wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
So, let's say I'm Melee Mack. I have a Vibro-ax and a will to beat the crap out of Stormtroopers. I run into some that are 15 meters away, and I have a move of 10.

Would you, as a Gamemaster, let me take a Full Dodge for three rounds, moving 5m closer each round while doing so, assuming the terrain is Moderate or less? (q.v. "Cautious Movement" on page 101 of R&E)?

Yes, but those troopers could be taking the free 5 m move BACKWARDS while shooting you...
Eventually they will hit.


Nah, they're Stormtroopers. They'll never hit. Wink


Yes they can hit. Just maybe not the target! Wink


Hero: You couldn't hit the broadside of a barn!
Stormtrooper (still firing): Yeah, but I'm hitting everything else.


How appropriate, you fight like a cow. Very Happy


Suddenly the session adopts "Monkey Island" style combat modifiers.
Each successful quip or rejoinder grants a +1 bonus to its speaker's next combat roll.


It's a form of Intimidate-for-combat-advantage.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that the first page of answers were from a more "realistic" perspective of the game. And thats fine if that is how you want to play. However since I play a more cinematic game, I have no problem with a PC charging down a Storm trooper and closing the gap before the Storm trooper can get a shot off. Im running Star Wars not Rogue One Wink
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Btw Stormtroopers just bscking up isn't really realistic either. One reason that they found out about the 21 foot rule was that Police were trained to stand their ground. There are several cases where that if the officer woukd have just toik a step back, they woukd still be alive. The knife wielder is still dead either way. I noticed that the hardest thing for a GM to do is to play "dumb" for the NPCs. I.e. for a tactical sense they do X but if you play from a narrative sense they do Y. Btw if a Imperial Guard is run downed? They would back up Smile
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
It seems to me that the first page of answers were from a more "realistic" perspective of the game. And thats fine if that is how you want to play. However since I play a more cinematic game, I have no problem with a PC charging down a Storm trooper and closing the gap before the Storm trooper can get a shot off. Im running Star Wars not Rogue One Wink


And to me, Rogue 1 is AS much starwars as any of the other films..
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And to me, Rogue 1 is AS much starwars as any of the other films..


This.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Nah, they're Stormtroopers. They'll never hit. Wink



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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And to me, Rogue 1 is AS much starwars as any of the other films..

Agreed.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, an in-universe example of this tactic working, from Splinter of the Mind's Eye...

Quote:
Ahead lay double transparent doors leading to the now-attractive damp ground outside. An unarmored soldier sat scribbling at a desk to one side of the doorway.

"They haven't gotten the alarm here yet," Luke muttered.

"That won't last long," the Princess declared knowingly. "He's not alone." She indicated the two guards flanking the exit. Each was armed with assorted devices in addition to a brace of heavy rifles.

Luke leaned against the wall, thinking furiously. It was a long way across an open floor to the doorway.

"We could cover the Yuzzem," the Princess suggested. "If they can take out the man at the desk before he can sound an alarm..."

"No," Luke objected."Too risky. If the two guards are good shots Hin and Kee will both be killed. Maybe if you and I put our weapons down and fake one of us being in trouble..."

"Well," Luke went on thoughtfully, "we could make some noise here, maybe draw one or both of them away from the alarmswitches ..."

Hin and Kee listened a minute longer to the two humans chattering, then exchanged glances. Hin grunted and Kee nodded in reply.

An ear-splitting shriek made both Luke and Leia jump. Waving their gangly arms and brandishing their rifles like toys, the two Yuzzem went charging around the corner like a hirsute avalanche.

The tactic was unrefined, but it worked. All three guards became momentarily paralyzed by the sight of the two giants bearing down on them. At the desk the uniformed trooper shakily hit two studs... neither of them the right one.

Hin was on the first guard before he could raise his heavy weapon. It went off, blasting a gaping hole in the floor. Without bothering to remove the man's armor, Hin proceeded to dismember him.

Kee picked up the entire desk and communications console and brought it down on the terrified trooper behind it. The other guard finally unlimbered his heavy weapon. He was taking aim on the nearest rampaging Yuzzem.

"Kee, look out!" Luke yelled, even as he and Leia were charging around the corner and across the alcove. A bolt of energy ionized the air above the Yuzzem and then exploded against the far wall. Luke dropped the guard with one burst from his pistol.

By then the Princess had reached the double doors and was trying the manual release frantically. "It's no good, Luke! It's got to be activated remotely.From that, probably." She pointed to the demolished desk.

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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
shootingwomprats wrote:

The idea comes from the hole in the rules making hand-to-hand-combat pretty much useless. It is modeled after real world tests that found person within I think 20-30 feet of a trained person with a gun (law enforcement, figure Firearms 4D+2) will not be able to effectively shoot that person.



We practice this drill at our annual qualification. Knife wielder at 20', officer with gun holstered. On the whistle the knife assailant charges, the officer draws to engage, while backpeddling, standing ground or moving away and engaging with torso half-turned.

Even when absolutely ready and waiting, it can be difficult to get the shots off accurately. Assuming assailants don't usually drop instantly and can still fight, a knife wielder is still very dangerous, to say nothing of a bigger or more efficient melee weapon.

You can find videos of this sort of thing online. The most vivid is when the attacker is armed with a red marker to simulate a knife.

Not sure the *best* way to handle it, but the situation described by the OP; the guy definitely should have a chance to get an attack in on the storm troopers, as long as the encounter is at least mildly surprising to them and their weapons aren't already pointed... and the guy is willing to take at least a glancing hit.


That's a third of the distance the OP used in their example. Roughly 3 feet in a meter. At 20 meters the runner would be dodging blaster fire before he reached the stormtroopers.

Also, those tests are done with holstered weapons, as you stated. If the blasters are slung with just a safety to thumb before they can be fired you have less of a chance.

Thirdly, blasters at point blank range can be melee parried. It doesn't take much to make a shot go wild. At melee ranges, melee weapons are drastically more effective.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you play storm troopers as inept as they are characteristically portrayed, then there is virtually no way for a stormy to hit a target that is charging at him from ANY distance.

Hitting a man-sized target with precision at any distance is tricky enough, even when he is standing still. Hitting at all is much easier, but any-old hit--even if it is eventually fatal--doesnt end a fight immediately.

The only way to instantly stop a threat is to incapacitate the central nervous system. Even a shot to the heart leaves an assailant with at LEAST two rounds of activity (about 7-10 seconds in the best case scenario). Anything other than the heart, and you're looking at significantly more time to do some damage before losing consciousness or dying.

If stormies are to suck at shooting, then gunning down a charging attacker should be almost impossible for any trooper that is a potential target of that charge.

I wont go into the nuances of rifle shooting at short range: I'll just assume that the targeting tech in a trooper's helmet compensates for things like mechanical offset.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

If stormies are to suck at shooting, then gunning down a charging attacker should be almost impossible for any trooper that is a potential target of that charge.

I wont go into the nuances of rifle shooting at short range: I'll just assume that the targeting tech in a trooper's helmet compensates for things like mechanical offset.


But if they are 'to suck' they wouldn't have 4d OR MORE in blaster.. they would barely be at 2-3d...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:

If stormies are to suck at shooting, then gunning down a charging attacker should be almost impossible for any trooper that is a potential target of that charge.

I wont go into the nuances of rifle shooting at short range: I'll just assume that the targeting tech in a trooper's helmet compensates for things like mechanical offset.


But if they are 'to suck' they wouldn't have 4d OR MORE in blaster.. they would barely be at 2-3d...


In my opinion, stormtroopers should be very dangerous. But, if we are STICKING TO THE FILMS, then stormies just suck, and probably should have 2D in blaster, to represent their mass-produced nature.

And even if we are talking about a 4D character (the bottom of the "professional" barrel), that is still a low enough skill to virtuly always miss a headshot on a moving target (yes, I know that a "wound" knocks the target down by the rules: but since the discussion ventured into the land of realistic-ness, I felt it would not be inappropriate to deacribe what is actually realistic--because it certainly isnt the rules, and it certainly isnt Star Wars).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

In my opinion, stormtroopers should be very dangerous. But, if we are STICKING TO THE FILMS, then stormies just suck, and probably should have 2D in blaster, to represent their mass-produced nature.


Which stormies though?? Those who assaulted the Tantav were very good shots. Same as those at Echo base.. Only those on the death star when Han/Luke were freeing Leia seemed to be real bad..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose that if the films themselves bothered to differentiate between stormtroopers, I would have an opinion there, but, perhaps I'm not enough of a SW fan to really notice a difference in the baseline quality of a generic trooper.

In other words: if they look the same, then they are the same (yes, I know the films portray troopers with different kinds of armor for various climates or whatever, but I might liken that to the US military's various degrees of dress for different climates... a soldier wearing "snivel gear" looks much more bulky on account of the gortex and what have you... we even had special nomex uniforms that breathed better in the hot weather that looked different, but "the same enough" that you can tell its still the US army... the uniform didn't change the stats of the soldier wearing it).

In any case, it is still my opinion that it takes more than 4D ("baseline professional") in blaster to instantly stop a charging/running target by anything other than a lucky shot.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We let combatants use melee/brawling parry instead of dodge if they are in melee with the shooter.
This usually makes life easier for melee oriented characters as long as they get in melee before getting shot.
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